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Episode 399 - The Voice
In this episode, we discuss:
The Voice
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Transcript
Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,
Speaker:evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.
Speaker:Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin skinned.
Speaker:Some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought
Speaker:to be extinct in the region.
Speaker:Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own, but today we
Speaker:observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together atop
Speaker:a small mound to watch, question and discuss the current events of their city,
Speaker:their country and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:Yes, and what a collection of meerkats we have with us in
Speaker:this episode, dear listener.
Speaker:I, of course, am Trevor, aka the Iron Fist, looking to live up to
Speaker:my name tonight as I do battle.
Speaker:Uh, with me as always, Scott the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:G'day Trevor, g'day John, g'day Joe, g'day Liam, how are you
Speaker:all, and how are the listeners?
Speaker:There are more of us.
Speaker:Joe the Tech Guy's here.
Speaker:Good luck, Joe, maintaining all this tonight.
Speaker:It'll go swimmingly, I'm sure.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Also, we've got Liam.
Speaker:You might remember Liam, dear listener, who debated successfully, ultimately.
Speaker:He did not successfully debate me.
Speaker:He has got me to change my position for two electoral terms and I just hope and
Speaker:pray that the Labor Party actually picks up on it and moves slightly to the left.
Speaker:That's my definition of success.
Speaker:Welcome back, Liam.
Speaker:I'm pretty happy with that, that definition as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And also, also in his car with the windows wound up so as to reduce
Speaker:road noise is, uh, John Diastrates.
Speaker:John, who you might see in the chat room previously on different occasions.
Speaker:So John's going to join us as well.
Speaker:Welcome aboard, John.
Speaker:Thank you, Trevor.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Happy to be convinced either way.
Speaker:We'll see how we go.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So guess what?
Speaker:We're going to talk about The Voice.
Speaker:Because it's coming up, isn't it?
Speaker:And we've been holding off.
Speaker:14th of October.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And Liam reached out and said, Trevor, I think there hasn't been
Speaker:quite enough pushback on some of the ideas you've been putting forward.
Speaker:And so, Liam's put his hand up as this devil's advocate yet again, or just, no,
Speaker:well not, you actually, you are a, you're going to be a yes voter, is that correct?
Speaker:Yeah, I'm, at this point I'm pro yes.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, so Liam's going to put the yes, um, side forward and we're
Speaker:going to just see where things go.
Speaker:I've got a mountain of notes.
Speaker:That we can fall back on if the discussion falters, but, um, but yeah,
Speaker:we're going to talk about the voice.
Speaker:So without any further ado, if you're in the chat room, say hello and Liam,
Speaker:do you want to, um, kick off with your thoughts, having listened to the bits
Speaker:and pieces I've said over time and, um, You know, where I'm not, uh, giving
Speaker:enough weight to something, perhaps, or I'm just totally wrong on something,
Speaker:or something I've missed, or just give us, give us a bit of a spiel, Liam.
Speaker:Uh, I think maybe I'll try and just summarize what I feel is kind of the
Speaker:reasons why I'm a yes voter, and then maybe we can, and that's, I think, you
Speaker:know, I've got, I think, four succinct points in front of me, and then we can
Speaker:delve into more detail as required.
Speaker:Um, So, starting off, point number one, I think there's sort of a time element
Speaker:to this, so while there may be issues that you have with it, this is the
Speaker:opportunity we have, and if not now, it's sort of been mentioned that it's
Speaker:not going to be for another two terms.
Speaker:I think at least, sort of, something like this goes up again, and during
Speaker:that time, we'll still continue to have sort of poor results for Aboriginal
Speaker:and Torres Strait Islander people.
Speaker:So, there's an opportunity we have at the moment, and while you may
Speaker:have problems, this is kind of a good opportunity to see some results, I feel.
Speaker:Um, secondly, I think the, um, putting it into the Constitution is,
Speaker:uh, required, basically, through, we've had the historical dissolution
Speaker:of all the previous bodies.
Speaker:So, uh, ATSIC, and it was the, was it the NAC?
Speaker:The, yeah, the NAC.
Speaker:Second Knack, Atsik, and The Nick, um, have all sort of been dissolved
Speaker:at different points, and one of the biggest things I think we need
Speaker:is sort of continuity and support.
Speaker:Um, just the different programs need to be stood up, um, administered, and
Speaker:then continued for a period of time, and possibly adapted, um, to provide support
Speaker:to get to bridge the gap effectively.
Speaker:Um, I think we've talked a lot on the podcast, or you've talked a
Speaker:lot on the podcast, about sort of being a racist proposition, uh, I
Speaker:think it is a racist proposition.
Speaker:I agree with that.
Speaker:I think, um, it does separate Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people out, um,
Speaker:and confers upon them a very small right.
Speaker:And I think we should emphasise that it is a very small right.
Speaker:So, they'll be able to make recommendations to Parliament, but
Speaker:will have no, actually, hard power.
Speaker:The key here is that they'll have a voice, and they'll be there and be
Speaker:consulted on issues that affect them, and I think that's been lacking in the
Speaker:approaches the government's had so far.
Speaker:Um, also I'd like a sort of sub point on that one, is given the way that
Speaker:sort of lobbying and sort of money is affecting our politics at the
Speaker:moment, I feel this sort of levels the playing field a very small amount.
Speaker:Um, to some of our most disadvantaged people.
Speaker:Hey, I'm just going to interrupt briefly, Liam.
Speaker:Just when you turn to the right, your mouth goes right over the microphone,
Speaker:which then gets all breathy.
Speaker:So just put the microphone a bit more to the right, so that you're
Speaker:not breathing straight into it, because it's getting quite breathy.
Speaker:But sorry, keep going.
Speaker:That's a good comment.
Speaker:I'll move my notes to...
Speaker:I'll move my notes to the right.
Speaker:Perfect.
Speaker:Um, , so, uh, and then the final point, um, I don't think we can sort of just
Speaker:call them out as any other sort of low socioeconomic group, um, that can be sort
Speaker:of assisted by our standard programs.
Speaker:I think they're sort of distinct and different enough that we need to look
Speaker:at them and administer culturally appropriate programs to assist them.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:. Yep.
Speaker:Um, so that's the sort of crux of my argument.
Speaker:Um, four points.
Speaker:And we can go from there.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Uh, I guess initially I would say this is a balancing act depending
Speaker:on the priorities you have in your mind and different people
Speaker:will weigh things up differently.
Speaker:So other issues we talk about...
Speaker:Nuclear submarines.
Speaker:I can pretty much categorically say that if you're in favour of
Speaker:those, you're just wrong, right?
Speaker:But, um, this, this is one which will depend on your life experiences
Speaker:and your thoughts about different things and how you prioritise things.
Speaker:So, I...
Speaker:I guess it's one of those ones where I'd say it's a judgment
Speaker:call of weighing things up.
Speaker:And I don't particularly, um, begrudge people or, I don't
Speaker:know, begrudge is the right word.
Speaker:But, um, I certainly can understand how people come to the yes vote.
Speaker:And I can understand how people come to the no vote.
Speaker:And I can see how, um, people get there each way.
Speaker:And I understand that.
Speaker:It's not crazy.
Speaker:In either case, is what I would say.
Speaker:So, um, so first off, um, urgency of this.
Speaker:Um, you know, things need to be done to address poverty,
Speaker:particularly for Indigenous people in rural and remote communities.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be done through a voice.
Speaker:We could be implementing programs today to do stuff.
Speaker:So, there's no reason why things can't be done.
Speaker:Without a voice, for example.
Speaker:So, to me, almost urgency might be a reason why not to have a voice.
Speaker:Because that's just another body that things are going
Speaker:to potentially go through.
Speaker:So, it's, it's not as if things...
Speaker:Have to be done through a voice to get things done.
Speaker:So, so I don't see the urgency argument as, as compelling.
Speaker:Um, I would have thought it is probably urgent because, um, well Marcia
Speaker:Langton's not getting any younger.
Speaker:It's urgent if you want to pass the voice, but if you want to do
Speaker:something in Indigenous communities, that's a different matter.
Speaker:Yeah, I understand that, but what you've also got to understand is
Speaker:that the voice is still yet to be designed by the Parliament, still yet
Speaker:to be implemented by the Parliament.
Speaker:This is just making a, a part of it in our Constitution that they could
Speaker:then rely on and that sort of stuff if they ever wanted to sue the government
Speaker:for not actually setting the voice up.
Speaker:The voice is also only something that is a, uh, what's the word I'm griping for?
Speaker:Uh, is only something that is giving advice to the government,
Speaker:which they are more than able to ignore if they so desire.
Speaker:So, I don't think we're going to end up with, I don't think we're going to end
Speaker:up in high courts or anything like that.
Speaker:I don't think it's going to clog the courts with arguments that,
Speaker:well, you, you didn't listen to the voice, so we're going to sue you.
Speaker:It's just something that has been worked through.
Speaker:It was put together with the Uluru Statement, which was a gathering
Speaker:of, I don't know, a few hundred.
Speaker:People and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:And yes, 20 percent of them didn't, didn't want to sign up to it.
Speaker:I do agree with that, but 80 percent of them did want it.
Speaker:So, I would have thought if it's something that they have actually
Speaker:asked for, then it's something that, um, we've got to actually.
Speaker:If you said to any, if you said to any group, here's some
Speaker:special stuff, do you want it?
Speaker:What, what, what group is going to say no?
Speaker:Yeah, okay, but what's, what's the sort of special stuff
Speaker:they're going to get out of it?
Speaker:All they're going to do is have an advisory body and that sort
Speaker:of stuff that's going to...
Speaker:Filter everything through this one body that's then going to
Speaker:talk directly to government.
Speaker:Can the government ignore it?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely, they can.
Speaker:Of course they can.
Speaker:The government can ignore it.
Speaker:This has led to arguments from the no case and that sort of stuff that are
Speaker:saying that you'll end up with the same problem that you had in Canada.
Speaker:Where their, I can't remember what it was called, but their voice is
Speaker:what it amounted to, ignored the, ignored, was ignored by the government.
Speaker:So the government found themselves in court and it's only just been ruled on
Speaker:by whatever their, whatever their high court is, saying that the government
Speaker:can ignore the advice if they wish to.
Speaker:I think that our voice will be able to do the same thing, so I don't think
Speaker:we're going to end up in the court.
Speaker:Yeah, I don't have a problem with that.
Speaker:I don't have an issue with that.
Speaker:I'm just, I'm quite I think that the largest mechanism is A, that they
Speaker:contribute to the discussion, and then B, that in the event of the government
Speaker:ignoring their advice, there is capacity for the, you know, there be a spokesman
Speaker:or the media to actually run with that.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:So, in the voice, we've got to say we suggested A, and
Speaker:they did not take that advice.
Speaker:Which is something that could be argued in a court of public opinion,
Speaker:but I don't think it's going to end up in law courts or anything like that.
Speaker:So it's a special right of lobbying, is essentially what's being offered here.
Speaker:Yeah, okay, which is not really a big problem because they're
Speaker:not getting paid for it.
Speaker:Well, Scott, my problem is to do with the treatment of different
Speaker:categories of people based on race.
Speaker:So the problem is, alright, the actual right being granted
Speaker:ultimately probably isn't going to be particularly powerful, although...
Speaker:I wouldn't mind being able to sit in Parliament with a, with Parliaments
Speaker:forced to be my audience while I tell them what I think should happen in the world.
Speaker:And get a pretty penny for it as well.
Speaker:We're not even sure, we're not even sure if they're going
Speaker:to get paid for it, Scott.
Speaker:Scott, companies pay a lot of money for lobbyists.
Speaker:To go into Parliament and make representations.
Speaker:So it's not insignificant power to be able to have that access to
Speaker:people and to put forward your case.
Speaker:Like, it is a right of some significance.
Speaker:Now, sure, the Parliament could ignore it.
Speaker:But it's genuinely a right that is going to be given and the point that we're
Speaker:going to get to eventually is that this is not a right that everyone's been given.
Speaker:It's a right that's been given to a particular cultural
Speaker:group, Indigenous people.
Speaker:And that is, that is the only problem that I've got with it.
Speaker:Now, you know, Liam was talking about the culture group and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:And my hair on the back of my neck went up when he started talking like
Speaker:that, because, you know, culture is not something that we have to respect.
Speaker:It's got to earn our respect, and there hasn't been a hell of a lot
Speaker:of the cultural practices of our Indigenous brethren that I think
Speaker:deserves any sort of respect.
Speaker:I think that's a, it's a very tough point of view, in terms of
Speaker:like, their cultural practices.
Speaker:Like we've kind of been as a dominant culture and basically
Speaker:wiped out their whole population, then exploited their labour.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:They weren't allowed to vote.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:And then, at this point, we're saying, oh, the culture is not
Speaker:something to be respected when...
Speaker:I don't know, like, there's a whole bunch of alcoholism and issues with their...
Speaker:Yeah, I don't think alcoholism is part of their culture, you know, it's um...
Speaker:No, but like, what are you pointing out as parts of their culture that need to...
Speaker:Like, they shouldn't really even have to justify their culture to you, I feel.
Speaker:Like, they should be able to exist peacefully.
Speaker:In their own sort of world, and they shouldn't have to
Speaker:sort of be absorbed into ours.
Speaker:Yes, and then you've got the problem that, you know, you've created.
Speaker:So that's, that's a good point to just repeat that again,
Speaker:that they shouldn't be...
Speaker:They shouldn't have to sort of justify their existence or justify their
Speaker:cultural practices as significant to you to be able to practice them.
Speaker:Yes, and shouldn't be absorbed into ours.
Speaker:Is that right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I've totally, I've heard previous arguments.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, okay, so then you're going to have the, then you're going to have
Speaker:the situation like they have in the Northern Territory, where, oh, it was
Speaker:years ago now, there was a case, where there was a guy that was convicted,
Speaker:was, was accused of rape and that sort of stuff, and they said, I will handle
Speaker:it, so he spewed through his leg.
Speaker:And they said, well, that's it, it's over now, rather than, rather than the cops
Speaker:getting involved and that type of thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Keep, keep.
Speaker:I was going to say back to when you were saying about, uh, access and
Speaker:whether or not they get paid or not.
Speaker:See, Aboriginal people don't get the same access that religious groups and big
Speaker:companies get, and that's through money.
Speaker:So maybe this is a way for Aboriginal groups to have some sort of...
Speaker:Always up there that that, that the power and the money has
Speaker:been able to get totally before.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'm conscious.
Speaker:That makes sense.
Speaker:I'm conscious that we're chopping and changing here, so I wanna run through
Speaker:to the end of some of these rabbit holes before we move to another one.
Speaker:Just just back to this comment, 'cause it's a crucial one is about
Speaker:being absorbed into our culture.
Speaker:John, I promise you we'll come back to that.
Speaker:Hold that thought and bring it back.
Speaker:One of the things I find in this, Liam, is.
Speaker:We're talking about closing the gap and what, what is often measured there in
Speaker:terms of the gap is education levels, health levels, wealth and income levels.
Speaker:Um, these sorts of, you know.
Speaker:How many doctors do we have that are Indigenous?
Speaker:How many Indigenous people have a degree, a PhD?
Speaker:How many are in the middle class, upper class?
Speaker:And so one of the things that we do with figuring out whether
Speaker:we've closed the gap is measure Indigenous people by their success.
Speaker:in our society.
Speaker:So, if we're going to say Indigenous people don't have to merge into our
Speaker:society and take on our culture, then how can we then insist that key criteria
Speaker:Uh, matching up, and how can we be surprised then if we don't have the same
Speaker:number of doctors, lawyers, teachers?
Speaker:Because if we're saying to people, keep your own lifestyle, do your own
Speaker:culture, you don't have to merge into ours, but then we start measuring things
Speaker:about how well they've done in typical features of our culture, I'm okay
Speaker:with saying, you don't have to merge.
Speaker:But then you have to acknowledge that, that the counting criteria
Speaker:is flawed, the assessment criteria isn't going to make sense.
Speaker:You're on mute, is it?
Speaker:I can't hear Liam.
Speaker:No, no, they can't.
Speaker:No, I still can't hear you.
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:You must have muted it.
Speaker:Oh, there's a little bug there.
Speaker:Is that back?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I accidentally muted myself.
Speaker:Okay, so, yep, in terms of that, I think, yeah, tend to agree with the A few
Speaker:things there, and maybe disagree on some.
Speaker:So I think the criteria that we're measuring by are inherently sort of our
Speaker:cultural criteria, and that ideally in a perfect world they wouldn't, um, they
Speaker:wouldn't just be absorbed and that would be, you know, but they like they will
Speaker:realistically I think before when I was talking to Scott, it felt like they're
Speaker:having to justify their existence and their culture to even exist, right?
Speaker:Which I feel is like fundamentally wrong.
Speaker:Well, I don't think they need to justify their existence to us.
Speaker:You know, it's, they exist.
Speaker:You know, it's, and you know, on the 26th of January, I'm very much with
Speaker:them, I think we should change the date, you know, it is a, um, you know,
Speaker:it's, it's a celebration of invasion, really, is what it comes down to.
Speaker:So I think we've actually got to change that.
Speaker:Okay, so anyway.
Speaker:Anyway, that's something else that's going to be done.
Speaker:We're diverging again.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Dictate Trevor's argument.
Speaker:I think, go on Trevor.
Speaker:No, I think you kind of agreed with me, didn't you?
Speaker:That, uh, that there is an issue that if you're not going to
Speaker:join into the Western culture...
Speaker:I think everything needs to come to the table a little bit, right?
Speaker:Like, there is going to be some assimilation, there's
Speaker:not like, you know...
Speaker:We can draw a line in the sand and they exist over there, and
Speaker:like, we're far past that point.
Speaker:Um, I'm just making the point that they should be able to have their own
Speaker:culture and have a sort of quality, uh, quality of life similar to that
Speaker:of, uh, you know, the Western European kind of people on the continent.
Speaker:Um, But yeah, that will involve some integration, um, so, I just...
Speaker:Won't it disappear though, Liam?
Speaker:Sorry, Landon.
Speaker:If, if you're bringing up the average of forest rate on a level of, um,
Speaker:what do you call it, the general quality of life, won't that make...
Speaker:Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders more like us, to put it bluntly?
Speaker:Well, I think, yeah, there's going to be some level of assimilation, I think.
Speaker:There's going to and probably over time, would they be sort of
Speaker:realistically distinct or not?
Speaker:I don't know if you went far enough into the future, but I think for, like, right
Speaker:now, they should be able to exist as I sort of have their own practices and
Speaker:cultural norms and things and not have to do exactly the same way that we do.
Speaker:And then, sorry I'm sort of losing my my track here, but I feel the the argument
Speaker:from Trevor, right, is that where Yeah.
Speaker:I'm basically saying that if you're not aiming to bring Indigenous people
Speaker:into the modern Western lifestyle in Australia, and if you're wanting
Speaker:to keep them in a traditional Indigenous lifestyle in a remote...
Speaker:Town or area, then it's really unfair to expect these key criteria
Speaker:to match up if it is my point.
Speaker:And so closing the gap is a problem if people are not going to, uh, assimilate
Speaker:into the, into our lifestyle to a significant degree because otherwise
Speaker:you just can't expect those things to a few metrics, right, that you could
Speaker:probably highlight as, you know, they could be culturally distinct and then
Speaker:still not, um, have what they have.
Speaker:So like, you know, the lower life expectancy, ideally you'd be able to
Speaker:have, live in your own sort of ways, but have a similar life expectancy.
Speaker:You'd also expect to not have their So, such a high proportion of their youth
Speaker:sort of locked up behind bars, so they're kind of two key issues, I think, that
Speaker:are issues at the moment, and that, you know, they could, they can have like
Speaker:in a healthy society or healthy sort of culture town exist with their own culture.
Speaker:But not have everyone, you know, going through the courts and being locked up
Speaker:in But don't something like 90 percent of Aboriginal people live in suburbia?
Speaker:Aren't they already essentially assimilating?
Speaker:So there are, yes, there are.
Speaker:There are some, so I think we're probably talking about,
Speaker:there is different groups here.
Speaker:There are probably people assimilating, living in...
Speaker:There's probably low socioeconomic groups that are probably more remote and,
Speaker:you know, where there is large issues.
Speaker:So yeah, it's not all sort of, they're not all the same.
Speaker:I mean, there's an emerging middle class of Indigenous people and I'll take a
Speaker:punt that they're living in urban areas.
Speaker:Technically, I'm one of them.
Speaker:So, um.
Speaker:Aboriginal in my community.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, my point is if we want Indigenous people to join the middle class, we
Speaker:probably need to get them out of remote communities where there's nothing to do.
Speaker:There's a whole range of social problems that come out of that living condition
Speaker:and it's an unrealistic expectation that people could live in those communities
Speaker:with nothing to do with a social welfare system that's going to prop them up
Speaker:and not have drug, alcohol violence.
Speaker:Uh, um.
Speaker:So yeah, so I'm just sort of caught your point about assimilation, if you like,
Speaker:or expecting Indigenous people to adopt Western lifestyle, and I'm saying, I don't
Speaker:expect them to if they don't want to.
Speaker:It's just, don't complain if the metrics don't add up to
Speaker:the same as an urban lifestyle.
Speaker:I would agree to that to the point, like if you want to live a life out
Speaker:in the bush, hunting, game or doing something, um, I would probably not expect
Speaker:you to have the same life expectancy as someone sitting in metropolitan
Speaker:Brisbane living a fairly cosy life, uh, with all the access to healthcare.
Speaker:Uh, however, I would think that there are certain metrics that
Speaker:should be closer than they are.
Speaker:So, the ones I pointed out.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:So, circling all the way back to the beginning about urgency as your very
Speaker:first point, um, it's urgent to get the voice passed in the sense that
Speaker:if it doesn't happen this time, it's not going to happen for a long time.
Speaker:But if you disagree with the voice...
Speaker:And that's not an argument for the voice, do you know what I mean?
Speaker:So, yeah, so what is urgent, what is urgent is, is helping people out in
Speaker:particularly remote communities, and that can be done without the voice.
Speaker:So isn't that going to, is it going to end down, isn't it going to end up
Speaker:then Trevor, it's going to be a top down approach where government decides
Speaker:what's good for you and that sort of stuff, and they'll chuck money at it.
Speaker:Yeah, I know, which is exactly what they're complaining about.
Speaker:Whereas if you give them a voice and that sort of thing, if you
Speaker:actually listen to them, then you might actually find out that the
Speaker:programs could be better targeted.
Speaker:That you could have...
Speaker:Have we not been listening?
Speaker:I don't think we've been listening to them.
Speaker:How do you know that?
Speaker:Well, I don't know that, but I'm just looking at, I'm just looking at the
Speaker:results and I think to myself that.
Speaker:Ah, so the results are poor.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because we have not been listening.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:That's your evidence for us not listening.
Speaker:We haven't been consulting, we haven't, uh, when major decisions have made, I
Speaker:would agree with that because we haven't You've had a different commission.
Speaker:We, yeah.
Speaker:I, my biggest argument along those lines is I think there
Speaker:just needs to be continuity.
Speaker:So there was the four different bodies that were stood up and disbanded.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And I'll get to continuity.
Speaker:It's on the list.
Speaker:Well, yeah.
Speaker:Along this point though, we're talking if you, if you put it
Speaker:into the constitution, victorious can't come in and just scrap it.
Speaker:No, but it's, Scott, you said we haven't been concerned.
Speaker:We haven't, they haven't had a voice, they haven't been consulted.
Speaker:If we ask them what they want, then something might be done.
Speaker:And my question to you is, how do you know that people have not been consulted?
Speaker:Well, I don't know, because I'm not part of that group or anything like that.
Speaker:When I've looked at reports on different things, like I looked
Speaker:at one, because we spoke a few weeks ago about, um, what was it?
Speaker:It was the income management.
Speaker:Uh, issue, um, in the Northern Territory with, uh, social welfare
Speaker:cards and things like that.
Speaker:And, you know, one of the things that strikes me about these inquiries is the
Speaker:enormous level of stakeholder engagement.
Speaker:Of going into communities and seeking opinion from people on the ground.
Speaker:That's what strikes me with a lot of these big decisions.
Speaker:Yeah, okay.
Speaker:But how many of them were consulted for the, um, intervention
Speaker:and that type of thing?
Speaker:I think, well, onto his, like, current point though, I think.
Speaker:There is, like, consultation, but then there's also continued, sort of,
Speaker:improvement, which is, I think, Dan goes back to my point about continuity.
Speaker:We need to have programs, and they need to have the time and space to change
Speaker:and see what works, and then properly implement it for a long period of time.
Speaker:As you know, I am in the party, but any politicians in such a bubble, when
Speaker:they talk about consultation about anything, it's very rarely coming
Speaker:from the people, it's always coming from whoever shouts the loudest.
Speaker:But there's no continuity or, um, uh, politicians hearing what needs the top.
Speaker:Well, I can just say that on some of the major decisions where reports are done.
Speaker:You can see there's an enormous level of on the ground consultation
Speaker:to work out what's going on.
Speaker:And we've got people in the Parliament who are Indigenous.
Speaker:So, just, uh, you know, there is this notion put forward
Speaker:that they haven't had a voice.
Speaker:You know, most, most cultural groups are, uh, a department, say education,
Speaker:the education department's going to make some changes and, uh, to religious
Speaker:instruction or whatever, you know, they'll go outside and consult with, uh, groups
Speaker:like, um, Queensland Parents for Secular Schools, that various religious groups
Speaker:get their feedback and, and then report to the minister and make a decision.
Speaker:And then totally ignore it.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:But that's the normal process of government is to the department going
Speaker:out and reaching out to stakeholders.
Speaker:So the Indigenous example has been a little bit unusual
Speaker:in that within government.
Speaker:There has been five different commissions set up by government to say, we're
Speaker:going to give you some help here with giving us stakeholder feedback.
Speaker:So we had five that, and then there's a history of them
Speaker:failing and being disbanded.
Speaker:And here we are with nothing.
Speaker:I think Julia, the moment a point there, isn't it that that ALP usually set them up
Speaker:and the leads tear them back down again?
Speaker:Is that Yeah.
Speaker:But is that an argument for the Yes.
Speaker:Vote to, to keep one of them going?
Speaker:So, so, you know my po my point is that stakeholder groups are normally
Speaker:outside of government and departments would go out to them and consult.
Speaker:And we have had a series of different groups.
Speaker:Funded by government, working like ATSIC, actually delivering government programs.
Speaker:So, it's, it's, it's just a furthy to say, for the last 40 years, we
Speaker:haven't been listening at all to what people, Indigenous people have to say.
Speaker:And it's as if there's some secret, some secret solution, that if only...
Speaker:We'd had the voice, we would have been able to tell the government, Oh,
Speaker:here's the silver bullet, or here's ten silver bullets, but never got acted
Speaker:on, because nobody listened to us.
Speaker:But I've yet to hear what these things are that never got up
Speaker:because nobody was listening.
Speaker:And if I was running a campaign for the Yes campaign, I'd be saying, right,
Speaker:tell me, tell me concrete examples of things that have been missed
Speaker:because we didn't have the voice.
Speaker:And if we had it, then this would have been different.
Speaker:And I haven't heard one.
Speaker:Look, I'm not in the detail of individual programs, but on your, like, point about
Speaker:consultation, I think the biggest issue is there's consultation, possibly, but
Speaker:whether it's actually listened to or not is probably the, the bigger issue.
Speaker:And I agree with that.
Speaker:I agree with that.
Speaker:I agree that it may not have been listened to, but the first part of your sentence
Speaker:was there's probably been consultation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And there's no guarantee that the voice...
Speaker:Is going to mean it's going to be listened to.
Speaker:Yeah, this isn't like a black and white thing, right?
Speaker:Like if we have the voice, it doesn't magic bullet solve all our issues.
Speaker:If we do have the voice though, there is a continuous part in the government
Speaker:that can keep relaying these messages to government that this should work or this
Speaker:won't work and we can keep improving.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay, so let's move on to, um, overcoming inconsistency.
Speaker:Of regularly disbanded bodies, all right, so that's an advantage that you see in, in
Speaker:this, this proposal and look, there's no doubt that it would mean it'll ne there'll
Speaker:always be something because it's just got to be according to the constitution.
Speaker:I think I know where you're heading with this.
Speaker:It might be one dude in a shed in the NT or it could be a full
Speaker:blown body across the country.
Speaker:It requires money.
Speaker:Yeah, if, if, if Tony Abbott or somebody like Morrison or you know,
Speaker:somebody just doesn't like the idea of it gets in, uh, they, it's so, you
Speaker:know, the proposal is so vague that there's no compulsion for a massive
Speaker:infrastructure to do the job properly.
Speaker:So if funding's not provided, then.
Speaker:The whole thing just, um, could be just a, a useless shell of a, of a, of a voice.
Speaker:There's no guarantee that the government will fund anything
Speaker:of significance by this.
Speaker:It could be, as you say, a handful of people in a shed, if, if it's
Speaker:a government that is of that mind.
Speaker:There's probably two points I'd say on that.
Speaker:So the first is if the referendum passes, then that would be a sort
Speaker:of strong indication from the people that this is something that they want.
Speaker:And it would be unpopular for a government to go in and sort of cut
Speaker:all the, cut the whole thing to shreds.
Speaker:Uh, the second part is that, uh, look.
Speaker:It's not a perfect solution, uh, but it's probably the best that we can do,
Speaker:given, so, you know, we've had bodies stood up and taken down, and then this
Speaker:gives at least some level of permanence.
Speaker:So, yes, the Libs could trash it the next time they get in government,
Speaker:sure, but that's impossible to stop.
Speaker:Yeah, um, so, so, so I've said my bits on urgency.
Speaker:And overcoming inconsistency, and you've also said that, look, Indigenous,
Speaker:um, people have issues that are different because of location and
Speaker:culture to other poor people, I think is what you're sort of getting at.
Speaker:Am I right that they need a special body?
Speaker:to deal with their peculiar circumstances.
Speaker:Is that...
Speaker:I would say that when you're designing a program to assist any
Speaker:sort of group of people, if they have distinctive characteristics,
Speaker:then you need to have the program...
Speaker:work along those lines.
Speaker:So, um, yeah.
Speaker:And, and there's, without a voice, there's nothing stopping
Speaker:a government giving an opinion.
Speaker:No, no, it's again, like, we're like wrapping around on, like you, in a
Speaker:perfect world, you can do all these things, but the problem is that they'll
Speaker:probably take longer than three years, or maybe six years, and then when the
Speaker:Liberals get in and they just pull the pin on the program, that can...
Speaker:The voice isn't going to change any of that.
Speaker:Didn't you think that, um...
Speaker:Yeah, what I'm saying is, this is not the silver bullet, but
Speaker:it is a chance to make progress.
Speaker:Political pressure, Mike, Trev.
Speaker:Yeah, so there, yeah, there is the element I was talking about before,
Speaker:so it's a referendum that passes, so there is some political pressure
Speaker:not to just gut the whole thing.
Speaker:But yeah, look, if you, if you were a government that, you know, didn't want
Speaker:to help Indigenous Australians, then of course there's avenues for you to...
Speaker:Just cut the entire thing and throw programs out the window and, you know,
Speaker:shift blame onto the body, which I think is what I read in one article,
Speaker:what's happened with ATSICS, so like, yeah, there are avenues where as a
Speaker:government, you could tear it all down.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So it, it, it might, um, it might do something, but it doesn't, but my point
Speaker:is by its very nature, it doesn't, doesn't solve any of these problems.
Speaker:It might just add a little bit of weight to make it a little bit more embarrassing
Speaker:to shut down an Indigenous commission, but these people are beyond embarrassment.
Speaker:Your argument now is verging into the, you know, it doesn't go far enough.
Speaker:You know, we're doing too little.
Speaker:No, um, cause I'm saying it's a balancing act and I'm saying that
Speaker:the benefits that are obtained from the voice are, I consider, small.
Speaker:And then we get to the negative of the racism aspect.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And so what I'm, previous, uh, 38 minutes was about...
Speaker:In my mind, the benefits aren't as strong or as good or as powerful as people think.
Speaker:And, and on the other side, I have an issue with the inherent racism in the
Speaker:proposal, which I think outweighs it.
Speaker:So, um...
Speaker:So it's not a case of saying it doesn't go far enough, which you'd need to do more,
Speaker:it's, it doesn't add much, and the problem is it comes attached with this other
Speaker:big disadvantage of racism, so, uh, Can you explain the racism part a bit more?
Speaker:So I feel like, you know, there's the, there's the racism brand, which
Speaker:seems bad, but this is like, you know, positive racism, basically,
Speaker:I would sort of liken it to.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:So, but also very, very mild.
Speaker:Positive racism, giving very mild powers to a small part of the
Speaker:population who historically we've done absolutely horrendous things to.
Speaker:Yeah, so it is a form of positive racism.
Speaker:Um, the problem with that is when you...
Speaker:Open the door to saying it's okay to provide special rights based on
Speaker:cultural groups than other cultural, than your argument to deny other
Speaker:cultural groups special rights.
Speaker:Starts to fall away.
Speaker:So when a Christian...
Speaker:a slippery slope kind of thing going on.
Speaker:Uh, well, hear me out.
Speaker:When a Christian...
Speaker:See, when, you know, last eight years we've spent rallying
Speaker:against Christians wanting special privileges, who say, we're different.
Speaker:Because of our culture, we need to group together so we can only employ
Speaker:people as math teachers who are Christians, because we're special.
Speaker:And in my argument, the first thing that I think of with these issues is We're
Speaker:all, we all have the same equal rights.
Speaker:You Christians are not special.
Speaker:You have to work in the same system that we all have to work in.
Speaker:And if you start saying, uh, cultural groups can have different rights, then
Speaker:you can no longer maintain that argument.
Speaker:You are saying, well, you can have different rights for different cultural
Speaker:groups if it's a positive thing.
Speaker:Right, and I would say it's a positive thing in a very rare exceptional
Speaker:circumstance, given the fact that it's sort of over a hundred years.
Speaker:And you know what, if 99, 90, 85, 80 percent, if 90 percent
Speaker:of Indigenous people were...
Speaker:Uh, uh, poor and disadvantaged.
Speaker:It was so close to a hundred percent.
Speaker:You thought it just doesn't matter.
Speaker:It's like indigenous equals poor and disadvantaged.
Speaker:Then I'd be inclined to say, okay, let's just, let's just say all indigenous people
Speaker:need, need these special rights because they're all disadvantaged, but they're
Speaker:not, there's a burgeoning middle class and upper class of indigenous people.
Speaker:There are, there's a spectrum of, of success and disadvantage
Speaker:in indigenous communities.
Speaker:So I'm all about.
Speaker:Helping people who are disadvantaged.
Speaker:And, dear listener, if you've tuned into this and you've never heard this before,
Speaker:triple, quadruple the amount of money that goes to poor Indigenous communities.
Speaker:Fine with that.
Speaker:But you just have to make the distinction that people should get
Speaker:this money and advantages and help.
Speaker:Because they're disadvantaged, not because they are part of a cultural group.
Speaker:You need to look within that.
Speaker:And the problem with the voice is, it's ignoring class.
Speaker:It's saying that Indigenous people, uh, as a cultural group,
Speaker:will get these particular rights.
Speaker:And I have a real problem with that.
Speaker:And so I accept that my emphasis on equal rights is, is...
Speaker:May be higher than other people, because of my experience with religion and
Speaker:what I think of that in particular.
Speaker:And it's just me.
Speaker:And other people may say, yeah, that's not such an important thing.
Speaker:Uh, can live with some, some good racism, and I don't care about these arguments.
Speaker:Um, but, I do.
Speaker:And so I prioritize that, and that's my judgment that that's, uh, more
Speaker:important than the other factors that we've just talked about.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Look, I can, I can understand all that.
Speaker:I would say that I don't weigh that nearly as highly as you seem to.
Speaker:Um, I also don't see the sort of slippery slope of us undermining
Speaker:our general premise of how we operate, um, through sort of, like,
Speaker:giving the okay to this one voice.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Can I.
Speaker:Okay, can I say that, um, I think Marcia Langton, in a previous form,
Speaker:an earlier format, kind of agreed with me on the importance of, of...
Speaker:So, I'll just, um, go through some of my notes here a little bit, but we had a, um,
Speaker:an expert panel on recognizing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, uh,
Speaker:in the Constitution 2012 and a joint select committee, um, shortly after that.
Speaker:And in an article, um, Where, and, and, and so this is in 2013, 2015,
Speaker:and they were saying, what should we do to recognize indigenous
Speaker:people in the Constitution?
Speaker:And what they came up with at that point after consultation was, let's get rid of
Speaker:the race provisions in the Constitution, and let's put in a section that recognizes
Speaker:the history that indigenous people were here first, and that they suffered.
Speaker:And, and that was the proposal that came out in 2012 2013,
Speaker:recognition of Indigenous culture and people and their history.
Speaker:And removing the specific race provisions in the Constitution.
Speaker:Now, that, I could agree with.
Speaker:Not a problem.
Speaker:All perfectly fine.
Speaker:When people say, Oh, this changed the voice, it's about recognising people.
Speaker:I say, No, it's not.
Speaker:It's more than that.
Speaker:We've moved beyond what was proposed in 2012 2013.
Speaker:If they had stuck to that proposal, The referendum would get up,
Speaker:because it doesn't, it doesn't have a racist element to it.
Speaker:And people would say, fair enough, that's history, and yeah, let's get
Speaker:rid of race from the constitution.
Speaker:And Marcia Langton at the time, wrote an article...
Speaker:Basically saying, we need to get race out of the constitution,
Speaker:it shouldn't be there.
Speaker:And we should move to a situation where we're just talking about, being
Speaker:indigenous is just an interesting little sideline, and it doesn't make
Speaker:who you are, and what's important is let's look after disadvantaged people.
Speaker:Like, that's what she was saying back then.
Speaker:And it's Noel Pearson and the Uluru Statement.
Speaker:That introduced the idea of the voice, and that's the one where your average
Speaker:Australian, who's not a racist, I mean, there are racist Australians, of course,
Speaker:but the people who are voting no in this referendum are people who are saying,
Speaker:I think we're all should be the same.
Speaker:I think we should treat people equally.
Speaker:I don't think I'm special.
Speaker:I don't think anybody else is special.
Speaker:I think we should all have the same rights and just help out poor people.
Speaker:That's what people are objecting to the idea of, of racial, um,
Speaker:categorization and, and division.
Speaker:The, the irony in this argument, the debate in Australia has
Speaker:been appalling in that the...
Speaker:No voters, well, the yes voters are accusing all no voters of
Speaker:being racist, and you could be.
Speaker:As in my case right now, if you understand the argument, dear listener, is you're
Speaker:trying to be as race blind as possible.
Speaker:That's the issue.
Speaker:And these people are being accused of racism.
Speaker:So, um, So, so if they'd have stuck to the original 2012 2013 idea, without
Speaker:introducing the voice, it would get up.
Speaker:And...
Speaker:Yeah, but would that make a difference, Trevor?
Speaker:Would...
Speaker:No.
Speaker:None of this makes a difference.
Speaker:No, there's...
Speaker:Nothing is going to make a difference, because ultimately, nobody's able to,
Speaker:to deal with the hard, uncomfortable truth in this whole thing.
Speaker:So none of it's going to make a difference.
Speaker:It's all window dressing.
Speaker:Uh, I would disagree with that.
Speaker:I think it can make a difference.
Speaker:If you had a body that's set up and listened to by the government
Speaker:for a continued period of time, then it could make a difference.
Speaker:Why, why hasn't, why hasn't it made any difference in the last 40 years?
Speaker:Because they tore it apart.
Speaker:They tear everybody down.
Speaker:Like no, no body's lasted, I don't know, what's the longest
Speaker:duration of any one of the four?
Speaker:And then, yeah, and then also, you know, you get Liberal governments
Speaker:which have been fairly dismissive of the Indigenous peoples.
Speaker:We had, uh, the NACC was from 1977 to 1985.
Speaker:We had ATSIC for 15 years, 1990 to 2005.
Speaker:So, none of these, nobody wants to deal with that.
Speaker:I'd have to, like, go into...
Speaker:Well, I'd have to do more research into how all these bodies function,
Speaker:what programs they ran and then, you know, how much they were funded
Speaker:and listened to by the government.
Speaker:But like, but what's the, what's the, what's the policy that's, that's been
Speaker:missing that the voice proponents say, we needed this and we didn't get
Speaker:it because we didn't have a voice.
Speaker:If only we'd had it.
Speaker:No, we're not disputing that they haven't had a voice at different points in time.
Speaker:No, the idea, the policy.
Speaker:Like, the whole point of this is there are ideas that Indigenous
Speaker:people have about how to improve the lives of Indigenous people.
Speaker:And the reason that we have not been able to do something is because nobody's
Speaker:been listening to us about these ideas.
Speaker:I don't think that's...
Speaker:Not just listening.
Speaker:It's about putting them into positions where they can sort
Speaker:of control their own destiny.
Speaker:But the voice is about nobody's listening to us.
Speaker:That's the crux of the voice, is nobody's listening, we need a
Speaker:voice to tell Parliament stuff.
Speaker:And I've yet to hear the argument that says, like, A, B, C and D, if only
Speaker:you'd listened to these ideas, we'd have been somewhere different by now.
Speaker:I think it probably goes down more to sort of like lower level, like, smaller
Speaker:programs in different communities, like, they're all not homogenous.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, well...
Speaker:This, you know, that is true.
Speaker:So one of the things out of, uh, particularly with the, um, income
Speaker:management program, which the reports I was reading, which was sort of post
Speaker:the event and interviewing people afterwards as to what they thought, 50 50.
Speaker:In these communities about whether they thought it was a good idea,
Speaker:the income management or not.
Speaker:And so one of the things that come from it was, uh, different
Speaker:regions have different desires and wants and needs and circumstances.
Speaker:And so, uh, so yeah, in fact, in fact, if that is correct, and if, um, If
Speaker:there's a spectrum of answers to things, quite often the role of the voice
Speaker:would be to say, you know what, in this community we should be doing A, B, C,
Speaker:and in that community D, E, F, and this community over here is completely split.
Speaker:It would be hard for the voice to make a recommendation on, um, income
Speaker:management if they looked at the results in some communities where
Speaker:it was 50 50, and they'd go, well...
Speaker:Some want it and some don't.
Speaker:It, uh, it, uh, a lot of the reports are showing that regional
Speaker:solutions are what's needed.
Speaker:I don't know that a central body in Canberra is necessarily the
Speaker:right place to start if the, if regional answers are the solution.
Speaker:Yeah, but they're also, they're also saying that a certain number
Speaker:of those representatives have got to be from the regions, don't they?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:That is true.
Speaker:And there's also like, you know, different levels of represent like different levels
Speaker:of government for different things.
Speaker:So the federal government could be mainly around sort of Giving up funding
Speaker:and you know, which programs continue to go ahead or which don't and making
Speaker:fairly high level decisions But then really pushing down the majority of money
Speaker:and you know autonomy to lower levels.
Speaker:Yeah But you know what all the money in the world for people in
Speaker:remote Locations with nothing to do who have been . Yeah, you need to
Speaker:fix the root cause of this issue.
Speaker:Heard it intertribal, um, groups who just fight all the time, then all the money
Speaker:in the world doesn't solve that problem.
Speaker:Some of these problems are actually insolvable without, without
Speaker:dislocating people from the land.
Speaker:And nobody's going to do that.
Speaker:I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that.
Speaker:I think that's, you know, they're more creative.
Speaker:Like you can start up businesses or, you know, you kind of need to give people
Speaker:meaningful things to do with their life.
Speaker:So, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but there's surely got to be
Speaker:mechanisms to do that without taking them away from wherever they are.
Speaker:I don't think that you can just set up a business out there though, because you're
Speaker:going to end up with, um, you're going to end up with a problem that you're not
Speaker:going to have clients or anything else.
Speaker:Businesses only, only prosper where there's clients.
Speaker:And what Trevor's talking about is a.
Speaker:Very remote area where there's a five or six people living, so, you know, you're
Speaker:not going to be able to Get a very large customer base from five or six people.
Speaker:Yeah I think as a...
Speaker:Unless you're doing some sort of, you know...
Speaker:Yeah Ultimately, that's why I see it as hopeless for remote communities in,
Speaker:uh, there's just no solution to bring those people and bridge the gap while
Speaker:they continue to live in those, while they continue to live in those areas.
Speaker:And they're the ones who most concern me.
Speaker:And, and ultimately.
Speaker:What's required there is, is cultural evolution, um, where we say, you
Speaker:know what, there's some parts of culture that were great, uh, 300
Speaker:years ago, but are just not going to work in the current environment.
Speaker:So, uh, if you continue this way, it's not going to be successful.
Speaker:In, in, in the metrics that we measure for closing the gap,
Speaker:it's just, it's just impossible.
Speaker:And the sort of people who are going to be in The Voice are unlikely to recommend
Speaker:cultural evolution, because to me, they seem like people who are in the industry
Speaker:of maintaining Indigenous cultural purity and They would perhaps be the last
Speaker:people to, to, to give up on culture.
Speaker:I don't, they don't need to give up on culture, we're talking
Speaker:about sort of in evolutions.
Speaker:Give up on a significant part of it, the land component.
Speaker:The attachment to land.
Speaker:That's a big part of it.
Speaker:And also, I agree with some of your points around, like, it's going to be almost
Speaker:impossible to, you know, education and living standards for people out there.
Speaker:I'd point to the bigger problems being, you know, the communities that are
Speaker:in sort of semi metropolitan areas.
Speaker:I don't know, uh, what's that?
Speaker:Townsville or something like that.
Speaker:Where there is sort of like a youth justice issue.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and you know, we've got...
Speaker:90 percent of Indigenous kids might like being in juveniles.
Speaker:90 percent of juvenile.
Speaker:Kids being locked up for Indigenous.
Speaker:So, they're things that, you know, we can actually bridge the gap on
Speaker:and aren't these sort of very rural issues that you're talking about.
Speaker:And I think, you know, you'd probably, if you really wanted to be clever
Speaker:with the stats, you'd maybe make some allowances for things like that.
Speaker:So you could probably segment the Indigenous population by the people
Speaker:living in, you know, non remote areas.
Speaker:And that would be a far more fair representation of the stats.
Speaker:And I don't know if they'd do that or not.
Speaker:Was that sorry, John?
Speaker:Sorry, mate, maybe that's where the voice of hell pointing to areas like...
Speaker:Education, especially, and um, juvenile detention or that sort of thing.
Speaker:I think education's the key.
Speaker:Yeah, education's a big one.
Speaker:But also, it's a whole, it's a whole span of issues, right?
Speaker:Like, you've got kids that have parents who don't have a purpose and are
Speaker:struggling with their own issues, and then you've also got poverty, putting them
Speaker:out on the streets or not enough food, and then you've kind of got boredom, not
Speaker:being, and then yeah, education as well, not being in schools and things like that.
Speaker:So it's, there's no one simple solution to the sort of youth justice
Speaker:issue faced by Indigenous people.
Speaker:As long as you don't end up going down the road where that woman that was arguing
Speaker:for the, what was she arguing for, Trevor?
Speaker:She was arguing that they should have education in their own language.
Speaker:Rather than English.
Speaker:Well, amongst a bunch of other things.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, that would be...
Speaker:Yeah, was that a couple of episodes ago?
Speaker:Yeah, I wasn't particularly involved with those suggestions.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:I think, yeah, everyone needs to come to the table a little bit.
Speaker:Well, I don't know that I've got a lot of pressing other bits to say about it.
Speaker:I mean, have you, Liam?
Speaker:I mean...
Speaker:Uh, no, look, I think if I were to summarise our positions, I think
Speaker:you weigh the rights element.
Speaker:quite highly, whereas I don't value it nearly as much.
Speaker:Um, I think that this, I would feel more inspired that this is actually
Speaker:an opportunity for change, rather than I feel you are quite cynical
Speaker:of the process being a, you know, mechanism that will actually help.
Speaker:Um, I think they're the two main things that I feel we sort of disagree on.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is there another one?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Uh, no.
Speaker:I was, um, I did mention just briefly that Marcia Langton, after that sort
Speaker:of 2013 period was quite happy with just a more modest proposal, which
Speaker:was, let's get rid of race and let's, um, let's just recognize history and
Speaker:suffering and put it in the constitution.
Speaker:I think that would be fine.
Speaker:People would have been on board with that.
Speaker:My...
Speaker:My emphasis on downplaying race and, and upplaying class disadvantage, I think is,
Speaker:um, you know, now that's just personally me compared to you, um, but I'm not alone
Speaker:in that some of the great American black activist thinkers Were along the same
Speaker:lines in many cases, or mentioned multiple times, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X,
Speaker:um, I think I previously mentioned, uh, Franz Fanon and Amira Baraka.
Speaker:I mean, these are people who are making comments like, Let's stop
Speaker:talking about race and deal with it.
Speaker:It's a class issue.
Speaker:And that's how American black activists moved.
Speaker:Our black activists have not moved in that direction yet.
Speaker:Look, I can, I can see the, the pros of that argument.
Speaker:I just think that, yeah, I feel that there, this is such an
Speaker:opportunity for change and that, um,
Speaker:I feel that it's also such a small, small right that's being
Speaker:granted, that, uh, it's just a body that can, you know, have a voice.
Speaker:Um, and I feel that kind of is something that's also quite heavy
Speaker:in how I've sort of judged this.
Speaker:They're really asking for like so very little, um, and we don't seem
Speaker:to even want to be granting that.
Speaker:So yeah, like I can, I can, I've listened to the previous episodes on and heard
Speaker:those arguments, um, and maybe if the race thing was more prominent in this for
Speaker:me, I just don't think it really is that.
Speaker:They get a small body that can have a voice to Parliament and
Speaker:then hopefully it can do some good.
Speaker:Um, that's kind of where I sit.
Speaker:I'll let you finish on that highlight, if you like, Liam.
Speaker:Highlight?
Speaker:Lowlight?
Speaker:Who knows?
Speaker:See, dear listener, I don't have to get the last word in every time.
Speaker:He says getting the last word in.
Speaker:Well, should we have a show of hands?
Speaker:Who's planning on voting yes?
Speaker:Um, I'm still undecided.
Speaker:You're still Eced . Hard job.
Speaker:We couldn't get you to make a decision after.
Speaker:Well, I, I certainly agree with both of your points a lot.
Speaker:I'm really worried about that.
Speaker:What I term as identity policy, um, aspect of it.
Speaker:You know, the people I'm aboriginal in my community.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Two of my sons are aboriginal community.
Speaker:Two older ones aren't.
Speaker:Does that mean two of them could get on this commission and two couldn't?
Speaker:That, that, that worries me.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I don't think they've actually said.
Speaker:That's what it means.
Speaker:I don't think they've actually, I don't think they've actually said what they're
Speaker:going to do to actually say, you know, Are they going to do blood tests to
Speaker:determine whether or not someone can vote?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, that's the bit that worries me and leans me towards no.
Speaker:The bit that leans me towards yes is that I think all these commissions
Speaker:that have been there in the past, um, were basically getting run down
Speaker:from the get go, you know, they only lasted as long as they did till...
Speaker:Um, somebody got in with enough power to dismiss them, so if a voice gets in, maybe
Speaker:there will be more access to Parliament.
Speaker:Which is going to help things along a bit.
Speaker:Yeah, which is, you know, Trevor's made the whole point about there being
Speaker:lobby groups and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:Um, considering the history and all that type of thing, would it be
Speaker:such a bad thing if the government actually gave them a lobbying,
Speaker:um, straight into the, straight into the halls of power, you know?
Speaker:It certainly would be more power than what, like I'm a member, um, and quite
Speaker:heavily involved in my local Labor branch.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I can tell you the voice will get them a lot more access than members do.
Speaker:I was arguing that I was arguing with our local South Wales MP on, uh, Monday
Speaker:before last of our branch meeting, and they, they're quite happy to continue on
Speaker:L N p, um, uh, policies, um, because it's convenient for them and all their local
Speaker:branches are screaming at 'em, but, you know, we're not getting anywhere with it.
Speaker:Ah, democracy.
Speaker:You know, Liam, I've got a nickname for you when you come on next time.
Speaker:You're, you're the Scott Whisperer.
Speaker:No, I was leaning towards a yes vote right from word go.
Speaker:You know, he's, he's not Scott Whisperer, you know, and he's only, he's only
Speaker:got me to vote for the Greens for two terms just to hopefully kick the Labor
Speaker:Party in the pants so they actually start to behave themselves again.
Speaker:Yeah, I'll come back in two terms, Scott, and we can have another debate.
Speaker:Yeah, alright.
Speaker:Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call this, uh, done
Speaker:and dusted for this episode.
Speaker:Um, I'm gonna look, uh, for another topic where Liam can
Speaker:convince Scott to change his mind.
Speaker:He has not convinced me to change my mind.
Speaker:I'm now going to come in here and justify my position to you, Trevor.
Speaker:I'm just joking, Scott.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:You, uh, you told me you're already a yes.
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:I mean, next time, Trevor, we can go on, um, I can push back a bit about polls
Speaker:and Ukraine, there's the other two.
Speaker:Oh, now you're tempting me.
Speaker:I think if you were to come on here, John, and argue with him about Ukraine,
Speaker:you're going to have me supporting you, you're going to have Joe supporting
Speaker:you, and, you know, it's just...
Speaker:How's that counter offensive going?
Speaker:The counter offensive is actually starting to make some progress, but it is very,
Speaker:very slow because they are trying to take out some heavily fortified areas.
Speaker:Apparently they are within striking, artillery striking
Speaker:range of the main supply route, going down to the crime area.
Speaker:And as soon as they can move artillery up there, then the
Speaker:war changes quite significantly.
Speaker:So my, my, my issue is in the middle.
Speaker:Um, I, I feel Trev that you think that Russia was justified.
Speaker:Is that true?
Speaker:Uh, they were provoked and they told you what they were gonna do and they,
Speaker:that's, that's very different though.
Speaker:And provoked, they did what every other superpower would do.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But do think was justified.
Speaker:Do I justified?
Speaker:Tricky word.
Speaker:So every other superpower would steal, would steal the children, take them
Speaker:back to their own country and give them to their childless citizens?
Speaker:Can we just stick with the invasion to start with?
Speaker:Alright, so the, the invasion is, that's where I'm in the middle, I, I
Speaker:agree with you Trevor that America has, is everything that you say they are.
Speaker:Was, was NATO justified in...
Speaker:No,
Speaker:I don't think any major power is justified installing their,
Speaker:um, ideals on other countries.
Speaker:So what you've said just doesn't necessarily, isn't necessarily the case.
Speaker:Yes, but then it comes back to, like every, you know, pseudo invasion that
Speaker:America's done, was Russia justified in taking some of the population who
Speaker:wanted to be with Russia and doing a full scale invasion of the whole country?
Speaker:If, if the majority of the population wanted to be in Russia, Is anyone
Speaker:justified in stopping them?
Speaker:I don't think you're getting the...
Speaker:No, no, no, it's totally different.
Speaker:You can't justify an invasion for anything.
Speaker:I'm sorry, you can't.
Speaker:In 92,
Speaker:they had, um, referendums and every province had a majority.
Speaker:That wanted to be part of Ukraine, including Crimea.
Speaker:Crimea was one of the highest...
Speaker:We went through the polls that puts all that into question.
Speaker:Yeah, and that's the other part that I disagree with you.
Speaker:Polls, if you have a poll to answer...
Speaker:Well, you just used one.
Speaker:No, no, they had a referendum.
Speaker:That's a big difference to a poll.
Speaker:My main point is...
Speaker:That's a really big difference.
Speaker:The main point with Russia is, and the Ukraine is...
Speaker:The Ukraine has to give in.
Speaker:Whether you think it's justified or not doesn't matter.
Speaker:It's, what's done is done.
Speaker:What matters is what you do.
Speaker:And it's, it's criminal what they're doing in just sending young and now
Speaker:middle aged and old men in to be blown up in a minefield for no good reason.
Speaker:But you can't point the finger at Australia or Ukraine with
Speaker:that, with that including Russia.
Speaker:Because they're doing the same thing.
Speaker:Well, blame both then.
Speaker:I mean, nobody's innocent.
Speaker:Nobody's innocent and all sides are to blame.
Speaker:How's that?
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:You can't just say, you can't just say Ukraine should sue
Speaker:for peace rights right now.
Speaker:So can I say all sides, can I say that all sides are at fault?
Speaker:Yes, definitely.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:I'm happy with it.
Speaker:But I think Ukraine has to give in.
Speaker:No, they won't.
Speaker:Well, they won't.
Speaker:Do you think they should?
Speaker:No, I don't think they should.
Speaker:So you've, how, you got any sons?
Speaker:You got a son?
Speaker:No, no, no, no, that's not the point.
Speaker:No, it is the point.
Speaker:It is precisely the point, John, that young men are being sent to a battlefield
Speaker:where there is no hope of victory.
Speaker:And they're getting slaughtered.
Speaker:Um, yes, but equally on both sides.
Speaker:Russia invaded.
Speaker:So they're sending their young men in.
Speaker:The point, yes, but the point is Ukraine is throwing young men against machine
Speaker:guns in the same way that The British told our boys to get out of the trench and
Speaker:start running towards those machine guns.
Speaker:And we said at the time...
Speaker:The difference is they're defending their own country.
Speaker:They don't.
Speaker:That's a huge difference.
Speaker:The big thing about it is they're both hopeless wastes of life that they
Speaker:should be ashamed of for continuing.
Speaker:Yeah, both sides should be ashamed.
Speaker:But you can't say, as soon as Ukraine sues for peace, all right, then, okay,
Speaker:yes, we're going to save lives now.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:But Russia wants the whole of Ukraine.
Speaker:Live to fight another day.
Speaker:You live to fight another day.
Speaker:At some point...
Speaker:You'll have another war in 10 years.
Speaker:You may well do, but guess what?
Speaker:You get 10 years to regroup, and you get to save lives.
Speaker:Yeah, but you've got 10 years.
Speaker:That gives the Russians 10 years of opportunity to get
Speaker:themselves set up for it too.
Speaker:You know what should happen?
Speaker:Everyone in favour of this should grab their...
Speaker:21 year old son, put him in the tank and send him off with a kiss.
Speaker:So you're telling me I'm not in favour of it?
Speaker:No, you are.
Speaker:You're telling me that they should keep fighting.
Speaker:I'm telling you the Ukrainians should stop and you're saying
Speaker:they should keep fighting.
Speaker:You're saying more young men should be sent into a hopeless battle.
Speaker:I'm saying, it is a hopeless battle.
Speaker:The evidence is the line's not moving.
Speaker:The Russians have fortified that line.
Speaker:It's not moving.
Speaker:It's not worth the cost of human life to regain some territory so that
Speaker:you can call it Ukrainian territory.
Speaker:It's not worth it.
Speaker:It's not worth it must be worth it for them.
Speaker:Because their country's being voted.
Speaker:It's only, it's, it's not worth it to, it's easy for, it's easy for the
Speaker:people in charge to send young men in there if they're not their young men.
Speaker:It's easy for people to sit back here and say, Ukrainians should fight till the last
Speaker:Ukrainian, and they shouldn't give up.
Speaker:Well, it's not them who are actually doing the fighting and the dying, so,
Speaker:so someone, the dying Australia then.
Speaker:So if someone invaded Australia for whatever reason, take out the, the
Speaker:theological of it, so, so if someone invaded and took over the top half, we
Speaker:could just, we just sue for peace and say, all right, you can have that top half now.
Speaker:Yes, if there was a trench line, heavily fortified that invading forces had set
Speaker:up, and it was a hopeless situation to try and breach that trench, then yes, I
Speaker:would say Let's give up, regroup, save our men, and live to fight another day.
Speaker:And if I was in Ukraine, you don't need the hypothetical.
Speaker:If I was in charge of Ukraine, I'd be saying, Let's, uh,
Speaker:let's not try and breach this.
Speaker:Let's...
Speaker:Regroup, and we're going to have to settle a new border.
Speaker:So when the Nazis invaded Western Europe, Uh, the UK should have
Speaker:just said, Okay, that's it.
Speaker:War's over.
Speaker:We'll sue for peace.
Speaker:Well, they had a chance of winning.
Speaker:The Ukrainians don't.
Speaker:The Ukrainians do.
Speaker:I think that's...
Speaker:They don't have a chance.
Speaker:The Ukrainians do, yeah.
Speaker:They don't have a chance.
Speaker:They do.
Speaker:It's hopeless.
Speaker:But it was hopeless as day one of the war.
Speaker:They were going to be invaded.
Speaker:They were going to be overrun within a matter of days.
Speaker:No, no, it was worth fighting then.
Speaker:I'm not saying they shouldn't have been fighting then, but now that this line's
Speaker:been established, heavily fortified...
Speaker:And it's been broken.
Speaker:They've taken Robitine.
Speaker:No, it hasn't.
Speaker:There's no Brit...
Speaker:There's no, there's no count...
Speaker:successful counter offensive.
Speaker:I just think you're misjudging it, Trevor, because, you know, it's one of those
Speaker:things, a war's not over in 90 minutes.
Speaker:A war takes a very long time to get, uh, get moving and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:When the breakout actually happens, then you will see, then you will see either
Speaker:a very successful Ukrainian counter offensive or a very successful Russian.
Speaker:What, what would you say if in 12 months time, it's apparent the line never shifted
Speaker:to where we're talking about today?
Speaker:If it was in 12 months time, then I'd actually, then, then I'd actually.
Speaker:And another 5, 000 young Ukrainian men have died between now and then.
Speaker:Would you just say, oh, that's a shame, got it, got that one, gosh, sorry.
Speaker:I dunno.
Speaker:I don't know what I'd say, but I think to myself, you the line, what to say?
Speaker:If the line, if the line hasn't shifted in 12 months time, then I think then
Speaker:he is that at that stage then he is actually gotta throw in the town and
Speaker:say, look and go to the bastard in Moscow and say, right, you can keep
Speaker:what you've already taken, but you know you're not gonna take anymore.
Speaker:What do you say took all those Ukrainian women who have lost their sons, brothers,
Speaker:husbands, fathers, Between now and in the next 12 months if the line doesn't
Speaker:move, and it's, and they're wasted.
Speaker:I don't think you can actually argue that the line hasn't moved.
Speaker:No, I agree with Scott there, and, and you can also say, it's like World War One.
Speaker:No one, no, everyone was going to keep the war going while
Speaker:they thought they could win.
Speaker:As soon as Germany realised that they couldn't win, the war was over.
Speaker:And it'll be the same here.
Speaker:As soon as one side realises that they can't win, Then it'll be over.
Speaker:At the moment, both sides think they can win.
Speaker:Yeah, I'd, if I can jump in, I don't follow this a hell of a lot.
Speaker:That's, like, I'm kind of on board a little bit of both.
Speaker:So I think, like, there's a shocking loss of life, which is terrible,
Speaker:and I also very much object to sending people to war, generally
Speaker:from the, you know, political arm.
Speaker:Um, so, but I also do feel that...
Speaker:If the Ukrainian people do want to try, then they also do have a
Speaker:right to try breaching the line, if that's what they want to do.
Speaker:But I wouldn't like the idea coming from on top.
Speaker:So, like, I think ideally everyone needs to opt in.
Speaker:These are the odds.
Speaker:I think it should be Zelensky versus Putin.
Speaker:Bare knuckles, fight to the death.
Speaker:Winner takes all.
Speaker:But the point being is that, like, at some point the Ukrainians...
Speaker:May not want to roll over and just take it and they may want to make a stand and
Speaker:it might result in a shocking loss of life and they probably have the right
Speaker:to do that if that's their choice.
Speaker:But yeah, and they need to make the choice around whether the
Speaker:sacrifice justifies the outcome.
Speaker:Soldiers on the front line are not given a choice.
Speaker:They're arresting people in Ireland to extradite them back to the Ukraine.
Speaker:Because they're saying to writing to the citizens and saying, well,
Speaker:to the countries and saying, this Ukrainian citizen is there in Ireland.
Speaker:Um, and we want him back here in the Ukraine because he's got to fight.
Speaker:That's what's going on.
Speaker:There are also, there are also troops on the ground in Ukraine,
Speaker:fighting for Ukraine, raising money so that they can keep going.
Speaker:Of course there would be.
Speaker:I'm fairly sure that my Russian friends, given the choice, would be there in
Speaker:the front lines fighting against Putin.
Speaker:Uh, your Russian friends would be fighting against Russia.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Why don't they?
Speaker:Because they know what it's like to live under Putin.
Speaker:Why don't they?
Speaker:Well, uh...
Speaker:Because they find themselves getting shot.
Speaker:Right, right.
Speaker:They're gonna volunteer for the Ukrainian army.
Speaker:Well, yeah, but it's not their territory, so...
Speaker:I'm fairly certain there's a lot of Ukrainians on the front
Speaker:line who don't want to be there.
Speaker:Possibly in every war that and would in every war.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that's one of the shocking things about war though, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:. Yeah.
Speaker:If that's the case, then I think that, you know, Ukrainian,
Speaker:like the Ukrainian should stop.
Speaker:People don't wanna be there and don't wanna sacrifice a lot of men against a
Speaker:line that isn't currently budging then.
Speaker:And, and, and the ones who've done what?
Speaker:Oh, it, it's punching.
Speaker:And the ones who do want to be there have potentially been fed a whole heap of
Speaker:bullshit propaganda about how we're just going to win next week when all this other
Speaker:stuff arrives and they wouldn't even know.
Speaker:They're just relying on their superiors who are telling them, spitting them a line
Speaker:to say one more week guys, one more week.
Speaker:Anyway, look, you know what?
Speaker:Uh, a year from today, uh, Leon's birthday, 12th of September, 2024,
Speaker:let's just revisit where the line was and where, uh, how many lives
Speaker:were lost in the meantime and.
Speaker:And see what people think.
Speaker:But anyway, that's that.
Speaker:And what, there's one other issue, John, while I've got you there, you
Speaker:said something about my, you said something about polls, my love of polls
Speaker:or my reliance on polls, what you said.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It seems in recent episodes, the last, oh, six months or so, you,
Speaker:you've, you've really come to pointing out a lot of polls now.
Speaker:I just think polls in general don't have much credibility.
Speaker:The one, if we go back to the voice one, all my, my, my boys are all under, um, 30.
Speaker:Not one of them, until recently, knew that there was a, uh, a referendum on.
Speaker:None of them ever would answer a phone for a poll, so there's no
Speaker:credibility in that poll, I think.
Speaker:It's only grasping a minority, and you've already just got to ask who is conducting
Speaker:the poll, and what answer that they want.
Speaker:So, I just don't see polls, you know, for years.
Speaker:Um, all right.
Speaker:I can take a punt at that.
Speaker:Like, um, so polls are becoming a little bit more reliable from the fact
Speaker:that nobody has a landline anymore.
Speaker:And so it's very hard to take representative statistical samples,
Speaker:but they are representative and a good indication.
Speaker:So I wouldn't hold it as gospel.
Speaker:But they are an indication of what's going on.
Speaker:So like you'll see in, yeah, like your points are valid, although there's a lot
Speaker:of people who don't know what's going on or, but you know, you ask them questions
Speaker:and you can structure the questions very carefully, and you know, they can
Speaker:provide an indication of what's going on.
Speaker:I'll be interested to see how close to the policy it's referring to me.
Speaker:Either way.
Speaker:It's not looking very good at the moment.
Speaker:No, I think it's gonna be lost.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's gonna be lost as well.
Speaker:So there goes my argument about polls, . Well, next time I raise a poll, you can
Speaker:just, you can just look at the chapters in the podcast and skip it again.
Speaker:The next section, John.
Speaker:If you don't like the data's good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay, on that point, we're done and dusted.
Speaker:We're gonna go.
Speaker:We're in the chat room, it's, uh, you've been making your comments, good on you.
Speaker:Next week, episode 400.
Speaker:We'll do a bit of a review of things, I think.
Speaker:That's what we'll do.
Speaker:Holy shit, 400?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:What the hell have I done with my life over the last six years?
Speaker:Devoted to the noble cause of podcasting, Scott.
Speaker:I reckon 400 means eight years, doesn't it?
Speaker:It does, yeah.
Speaker:But Scott went walkabout for two.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Yeah, so, yep.
Speaker:Well, I've been around for more than half of those, yeah.
Speaker:Very good.
Speaker:Okay, I'm gonna go.
Speaker:Gotta call it off.
Speaker:Okay, thanks guys.
Speaker:Thanks, uh, John and Liam in particular.
Speaker:Everybody says goodnight.
Speaker:We'll talk to you next time.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:Black History Month you find...
Speaker:Ridiculous.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:You're gonna relegate my history to a month?
Speaker:Oh, come on.
Speaker:What do you do with yours?
Speaker:Which month is White History Month?
Speaker:Well...
Speaker:Well, come on.
Speaker:Tell me.
Speaker:Well, um...
Speaker:I'm Jewish.
Speaker:Okay, which month is Jewish history month?
Speaker:Uh, there isn't one.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:Why not?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you want one?
Speaker:No, no.
Speaker:No, I don't either.
Speaker:I don't want a black history month.
Speaker:Black history is American history.
Speaker:How are we going to get rid of racism?
Speaker:Stop talking about it.
Speaker:I'm going to stop calling you a white man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man.
Speaker:I know you as Mike Wallace, you know me as Morgan Freeman.
