full
Episode 411 - More of Our Biased Commentary on Various Issues
In this episode we discuss:
(00:00) 411
(00:42) Intro
(05:16) Annastacia Palaszczuk
(11:54) Federal Labor Failing
(17:46) Patrons
(19:50) Terry Young
(25:36) Subs and AI
(31:35) Generational Divide
(33:01) Immigration
(35:23) Kissinger
(42:11) Covid Data
(47:38) Identity Trap Feedback
(54:57) New Zealand Rejects Race Laws
(01:10:34) Conclusion
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You can email us. The address is trevor@ironfistvelvetglove.com.au
Transcript
Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,
Speaker:evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.
Speaker:But today, we observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that
Speaker:gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the
Speaker:current events of their city, their country, and their world at large.
Speaker:Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the
Speaker:Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:We're back, episode 411, the last episode for 2023.
Speaker:We'll get this one done and then we'll have a little break.
Speaker:I'm Trevor, aka the Iron Fist.
Speaker:Coming in loud and clear from regional Queensland, Scott the Velvet Glove.
Speaker:G'day Trevor, g'day Joe, g'day listeners.
Speaker:It's a little bit wet up here because of the cyclone that
Speaker:is bearing down on Cairns.
Speaker:They're expecting it to cross the coast tomorrow at 1pm.
Speaker:In which case the rain will continue probably through
Speaker:until the end of Thursday.
Speaker:And Joe's in the UK, so you'd know all about rain, Joe.
Speaker:Oh yeah, it's barely stopped since I've been here.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Tell the listener about sewerage system you were talking about earlier.
Speaker:Yeah, so as far as I know, they don't generally have storm drains
Speaker:here, so the water just goes straight into the sewerage system.
Speaker:And it just isn't built for the volume of rain that they're getting these days.
Speaker:And so they're getting more and more floods, flash flooding.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Also the amount of building, which means less soil to soak up the rain.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:More runoff into the drains.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:More runoff, modern farming practices, tractors compact the soil.
Speaker:Basically, they're getting more and more runoff in places of
Speaker:flooding that never used to flood.
Speaker:And the sewage system would be failing because it's full of stormwater.
Speaker:Yeah, the sewage system backs up and there are sewage releases.
Speaker:Crazy.
Speaker:And of course it's all, it's all privatised.
Speaker:So of course they've got no incentive to improve it.
Speaker:Yeah, sounds awful and smelly.
Speaker:So anyway, here in Brisbane, it's lovely and sunny.
Speaker:So anyway, if you're in the chat room, say hello.
Speaker:Landon is in the chat room.
Speaker:Coming in loud and clear from China, was Landon in China?
Speaker:Beijing, okay.
Speaker:He's in Beijing, but he's also, I think he's heading down
Speaker:to Thailand for his holiday.
Speaker:So I couldn't tell you I understand he's still in Beijing right now, but he could
Speaker:be down in Chiang Mai, I don't know.
Speaker:No doubt he'll tell us in the chat.
Speaker:And Watley, coming in loud and clear from, I think, is it Tenterfield?
Speaker:I think, Watley.
Speaker:Might be your area, or I think that's it.
Speaker:Anyway, if you're in the chat room or you come into the chat room,
Speaker:say hello and make some comments.
Speaker:We'll try to incorporate them if we can.
Speaker:Often that's difficult, but hey, just make some jokes amongst yourself there.
Speaker:Armadale is Swatly, that's right.
Speaker:He's the international man of mystery.
Speaker:Armadale o.
Speaker:Given this is the last episode of the year, we can be a
Speaker:little indulgent on this one.
Speaker:Did I ever tell you about the coldest night of my life,
Speaker:which was spent in Armadale?
Speaker:Did I ever tell you that story?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So, my wife and I were driving to Sydney, and her brother in law said,
Speaker:Oh, you can stop at Armadale on the way.
Speaker:His mother had moved into a nursing home and her home in Armidale was vacant, so
Speaker:on the way down we could just call in, sleep overnight and then keep going.
Speaker:Free accommodation.
Speaker:We said, beauty!
Speaker:Anyway, we got into Armidale and it was bitterly cold.
Speaker:It was freezing and this house had been unoccupied for months, so it
Speaker:hadn't had any heating and it was as cold inside as it was outside.
Speaker:And anyway, it's late, it's dark, we get a quick look in the bedroom and
Speaker:there's an electric blanket on the bed.
Speaker:I said to my wife, fantastic, fire that up and we'll be fine.
Speaker:Anyway, that night, I'm tossing and turning and couldn't sleep
Speaker:because I was just still cold.
Speaker:And in the morning eventually, you know, the sun rises and my wife wakes up and
Speaker:I said, oh, that was a terrible night.
Speaker:Like, that was awful.
Speaker:It was so cold.
Speaker:And she said, it was perfectly fine.
Speaker:I lean over and put my arm around her.
Speaker:She's as warm as toast.
Speaker:And it struck me.
Speaker:It was one of those electric blankets that had a dual So she only heated up her
Speaker:side of the bed with the electric blanket.
Speaker:She was as warm as toast and I froze my butt off and we were in the same bed.
Speaker:See Trevor, you should have snuggled more.
Speaker:That's the point.
Speaker:That is the point.
Speaker:So there's a lesson for you, dear listener.
Speaker:The coldest night of my life was in Armidale in a bed
Speaker:with an electric blanket.
Speaker:Here we go.
Speaker:It does seem very cold.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All right, that was a diversion.
Speaker:Scott, we've got a new premier in Queensland all of a
Speaker:sudden, Anastasia Palaszczuk.
Speaker:Resigned, Stephen Myles has got the gig, and what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker:Well, I'm pleased she finally stepped down rather than actually
Speaker:howling out to the very bitter end.
Speaker:It clearly has boosted Labor's chances in the state poll.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's one of those things, I don't fully understand why the public turns on leaders
Speaker:after a number of years, because she has been in that job since 2012, hasn't she?
Speaker:Yeah, 2012.
Speaker:You know, it's been a long time.
Speaker:And she was just the, she was always referred to as the accidental premier
Speaker:who, got the gig after the Labor Party was reduced to seven or eight or something
Speaker:rather MPs, was an incredibly low number and she only got the gig because there was
Speaker:no one else left standing, so she got it.
Speaker:It's one of those things, now she has been quite a good Premier though, she
Speaker:has got a number of things up that were Very divisive for a number of years.
Speaker:She got abortion law reform through.
Speaker:She got voluntarists dying through.
Speaker:She got everything You know, she got through a couple of good things
Speaker:that you can really point to in that type of thing, you know She
Speaker:did okay during COVID pandemic.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:She did.
Speaker:She's picked up a boyfriend in recent times Yeah.
Speaker:And that's the better half is Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The better half reckons that she's gone off the boil because of the
Speaker:boyfriend, so I have to wait.
Speaker:I reckon there'd be something in that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because she was enjoying her time, I think.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Whereas previously it was just work, work, work, work.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I actually know him.
Speaker:I used to play frisbee.
Speaker:Yeah, I used to play ultimate disc frisbee in this pickup game in the park,
Speaker:and he was one of the players there.
Speaker:So, there we go.
Speaker:Small world, Brisbane, dear listener.
Speaker:It is, yeah.
Speaker:Anyway, I'm not sure Stephen Myles is the right man for the job, but you
Speaker:know, it's one of those things, it appears to be a factional deal because
Speaker:they're both from the same faction, so.
Speaker:I remember speaking to somebody who has some connections in
Speaker:the Labour Party, I won't say.
Speaker:Her name, but I said, you know, Stephen Miles appears really stiff and, um,
Speaker:almost robotic in his speeches in front of the camera, but apparently in real
Speaker:life, in person, he's quite charming and personable and, and it, the strange sort
Speaker:of robotic delivery comes in when he's in front of the camera, but when he's
Speaker:not, he's quite a charming, intelligent.
Speaker:Sort of character.
Speaker:So there you go.
Speaker:I'm sure he'll get used to it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, he's used to it I think it's just a sort of a training or a mode he goes
Speaker:into Right, but I was hopeful that this might lead to a change in the religious
Speaker:instruction laws Because apparently when he is asked about religious instruction,
Speaker:he kind of rolls his eyes indicating That he thinks it's a heap of rubbish.
Speaker:And so You've given the game away here.
Speaker:So Have you now, have you now opened him up as a target for the
Speaker:Australian theocratic fascist lobby?
Speaker:Maybe I have.
Speaker:So I certainly wanted him rather than Cameron Dick, who I think is
Speaker:quite right wing and religious.
Speaker:The other one, Shannon Fentonham, Fentaman, would have
Speaker:been okay as well, I think.
Speaker:But anyway, the problem is, that it turns out that Well, those three were
Speaker:all from the left faction, but Cameron Dick was from the right faction, so Yeah.
Speaker:The problem is that one of the big players in this, in assisting
Speaker:him getting in, was Grace Grace.
Speaker:And so he's going to, he's going to owe her.
Speaker:And I don't know if it's Grace Grace who was hanging on to Ri or
Speaker:whether it was Anastasia Palaszczuk.
Speaker:So, it's hard to know.
Speaker:One of those two women were, one of those two women were behind that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, if it was one you knew, you began to know.
Speaker:Given Grace Grace's comments, I would suggest that she was certainly for it.
Speaker:You'd think so.
Speaker:Because you not remember with the Satanist thing.
Speaker:Yeah, she went overboard, didn't she?
Speaker:She did.
Speaker:It was beyond what was necessary to defend a policy.
Speaker:It wasn't, I've been versed into this position by my leadership.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:True.
Speaker:It really wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, initially when I heard Stephen Miles, I thought, great.
Speaker:R.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:might be in the firing line, and then when I heard Grace Grace was one of
Speaker:the key players that got him in, I was like, whoops, maybe not so good, so,
Speaker:we'll see what happens with that one.
Speaker:We'll just have to wait and see about that, because which
Speaker:faction is Grace Grace from?
Speaker:Is she from the right or left faction?
Speaker:She's from the Old Guard, and she helped Miles, who's in the left faction, so
Speaker:she rounded up the Old Guard faction and got them to swing behind Miles.
Speaker:So, so yeah, that's how that worked, I believe.
Speaker:Yeah, it's one of those things, you just gotta wonder how long those
Speaker:loyalties and everything last.
Speaker:If he, if he, if he gets a solid election victory under his belt and that sort of
Speaker:thing, if he actually improves the Labor Party position in the next parliament,
Speaker:which under Palaszczuk wasn't looking all that possible, now it could be possible.
Speaker:If he gets, if he gets a reasonable election victory and that sort of
Speaker:stuff under his belt, then he might be able to turn around and say, well, R.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:'s got to go.
Speaker:In which case, if Grace Grace was actually saying, well, I'll pull
Speaker:the backing from them, then the rest of the rest of them might actually
Speaker:turn around and say, no, fuck you.
Speaker:He's done a good job for us.
Speaker:Promote her in some different ministry.
Speaker:She could probably have a pick of what she wants to do.
Speaker:So, that might, if it gets her out of education and somebody else in, they
Speaker:could approach it with a fresh set of eyes and do whatever they want to, maybe.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:We'll see how that all pans out.
Speaker:Who knows?
Speaker:You know, none of this has anything to do with The merits of the case and
Speaker:whether it's a good idea to get rid of R.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:It's all to do with power plays and factional dealings.
Speaker:It's factional politics.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All the good arguments in the world are meaningless.
Speaker:It's just who owes who a favour and who happens to be in a certain
Speaker:position at a certain time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Quickly on to Federal Labor.
Speaker:There was an article in Crikey, By Guy Rundle, just sort of suggesting that
Speaker:Labor's deserted the working man and looking at things that Federal Labor has
Speaker:done which is good, um, comprehensive Labor law reform, there's a lot of laws
Speaker:passed in relation to Like gig workers, treating them the same as normal workers
Speaker:and some other good stuff there, which we haven't really got into detail about.
Speaker:Because I haven't really come across any articles that explain it quite well.
Speaker:So, I'll try and hunt some down.
Speaker:The Americans weren't like that.
Speaker:The Americans Treating gig workers as human beings.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:They weren't like that.
Speaker:So that's one thing this government's done.
Speaker:And they did provide some housing assistance, but it took the Greens
Speaker:to beef that up into something more meaningful in the short term.
Speaker:And, and they supported the minimum wage wise in the Fair Work Commission.
Speaker:That's about it.
Speaker:On the negative side Still haven't done anything about it at all.
Speaker:They keep going with Stage 3 tax cuts.
Speaker:Commitment to AUKUS.
Speaker:Don't seem to be doing much on the environment.
Speaker:And seem to be supporting Israel rather than, in preference to the
Speaker:Palestinians, rather than saying there's a lot of fault on both sides here.
Speaker:So I think that that was probably just a little bit overdone because Penny Wong
Speaker:did actually say Israel has the right to defend themselves, but it's the way
Speaker:in which they defend themselves that they've actually got to be careful of.
Speaker:So I think she was actually saying you can, you know, you've got to actually
Speaker:watch what you do and that sort of thing.
Speaker:You've got to be careful that you're not killing as many civilians as you
Speaker:are, but she didn't actually say it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:She could have said, this is wrong, this genocidal campaign
Speaker:you've got going on here.
Speaker:You're just going too far.
Speaker:It's just terrible.
Speaker:What's going on there?
Speaker:Yeah, I suppose you're right there.
Speaker:It's just you know, Israel's not an ally or anything like that of Australia.
Speaker:It's, they are just basically on the same Israel is not an ally of anybody.
Speaker:No, I know that.
Speaker:They're in Israel for Israel's sake.
Speaker:But even if they were
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:You should be able to be critical of your friends.
Speaker:And it looks like they are not as critical as Trevor wants them to be.
Speaker:And I also think to myself they probably could be a little more
Speaker:critical than what they have been.
Speaker:Well, Anthony Albanese, the younger 20 year old version, would have been far more
Speaker:critical than the 60 year old version.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:He would have been.
Speaker:It's just one of those things you've, you've got to accept with
Speaker:the sweet passage of time you do mellow somewhat in your thinking
Speaker:and People become more conservative.
Speaker:Yeah, they do.
Speaker:Absolutely, they do.
Speaker:I know some Jews who have been saying how much that they feel
Speaker:that Israel has lost its way.
Speaker:The Israel of the 1960s, the 1970s is not the Israel of the 2000s.
Speaker:Oh, I agree wholeheartedly with that.
Speaker:You know, it's just one of those things.
Speaker:Israel, you know, used to be, it used to be quite a good
Speaker:country, that sort of thing.
Speaker:It stood the rule of law and all that type of thing.
Speaker:It did actually stand up for itself and it did actually put them Well
Speaker:and truly back in their place.
Speaker:But, with this recent Netanyahu government, you've actually got to be
Speaker:really concerned about them because, you know, it wasn't all that long
Speaker:ago that the streets of Tel Aviv were packed with people that are out there
Speaker:protesting against their government.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Where is the Israeli power?
Speaker:Is that in Tel Aviv or is that in Jerusalem?
Speaker:I would assume Tel Aviv.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Don't know.
Speaker:Here's another test for Labor.
Speaker:So there's a Productivity Commission report and it's come out and has
Speaker:made a recommendation to remove financial reporting exemptions given
Speaker:to thousands of religious charities.
Speaker:So most charities are required to provide financial information and
Speaker:basically the bigger you are, the more information you have to give.
Speaker:And of course, religions have a certain type of privilege where
Speaker:they're exempted from a lot of this.
Speaker:So, basic religious charities is a term that's there and They have
Speaker:lower reporting requirements, and there's Productivity Commission has
Speaker:come out and said nope, should get rid of that religious exemption.
Speaker:There's a test of secularism for the federal Labor government to see whether
Speaker:they can come through with that.
Speaker:You reckon they will, Scott or Joe?
Speaker:Do you think they'll actually follow the recommendation?
Speaker:One would hope they're going to use that as cover for themselves and say, well, the
Speaker:Productivity Commission has required this, so we're going to go ahead and do it.
Speaker:whAt I would have thought would be a bigger test of Labor's commitment
Speaker:to secularism would be the religious persecution legislation, which they have
Speaker:actually talked about bringing back.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But allowing the religious people to persecute others.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Yeah, because they wouldn't be able to throw rocks at people like me and
Speaker:call me a D and everything else, but they don't want anyone to throw rocks
Speaker:at them for being kitty fiddlers.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:We'll see.
Speaker:Anyway, that would be an easy one, I would have thought, to follow the
Speaker:productivity Commission's recommendation, but I don't hold out a lot of hope.
Speaker:We'll see what happens.
Speaker:Look, end of year, haven't mentioned them for a while.
Speaker:Before I forget, a big thank you to the patrons of this podcast.
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Speaker:Alright I think we are coming up to Christmas.
Speaker:I thought I'd give you a Christmas message.
Speaker:This one is from one of our federal politicians.
Speaker:Terry Young, Liberal National Party, and he's got a lovely message for
Speaker:us, with a bit of luck, here it is.
Speaker:As this is the last full sitting week before we break for Christmas, I
Speaker:thought it appropriate that I take the opportunity to deliver a Merry Christmas
Speaker:message to my electorate of Longman.
Speaker:As I have stated, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
Speaker:Why does the birth of one baby in a small town in the Middle East, in a
Speaker:town called Bethlehem, warrant such a celebration over 2, 000 years later?
Speaker:Jesus existence and life is, of course, well documented, not just by Jews
Speaker:and Christians, but by historians, whether they hold a faith or not.
Speaker:But again, I ask the question, why all the controversy?
Speaker:Of course, this is because of who Jesus claimed to be, which according
Speaker:to those of the Christian faith, It has never been, and never should be, any
Speaker:government's mandate to tell citizens what they should believe in, especially
Speaker:when it comes to matters of faith.
Speaker:However, for many years, Australia was a nation based
Speaker:on Judeo Christian principles.
Speaker:As many have said, whether you have a faith or not, the
Speaker:Christian principles work.
Speaker:Christian values such as keeping your word, paying your taxes,
Speaker:being generous with your fellow man, not judging others, helping
Speaker:those less fortunate than yourself.
Speaker:Paying workers a fair wage for a fair day's work, and environmental
Speaker:stewardship, just to name a few.
Speaker:But with the slide of the Christian faith in our society, as evidenced in
Speaker:the recent census, where for the first time there are less people who say they
Speaker:are of the Christian faith than are not.
Speaker:We have seen the effects of a society that doesn't have A common value
Speaker:set and people are left to make up their own individual values.
Speaker:We can directly correlate the decline of the Christian faith in our country
Speaker:to increases in domestic violence, the breakdown of the family unit, drug
Speaker:use, crime rates, basically anarchy.
Speaker:But probably the most negative effect of this change, which is the
Speaker:underlying cause of the increases in the issues I just mentioned before,
Speaker:which is a society would become more inward looking than outward looking.
Speaker:In other words, all self absorbed.
Speaker:Perhaps this Christmas, we could ponder and reflect on this, and
Speaker:consider others before ourselves, and consider this man Jesus, who he
Speaker:claimed to be and what he taught.
Speaker:A man after whom even our history's timeline is measured.
Speaker:There you go, that's in our Federal Parliament, that's
Speaker:the calibre of discussion.
Speaker:It all started to fall apart at the point where he said, Jesus is well documented.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And everything from that point on just fell over.
Speaker:Yeah, that was the one.
Speaker:That was, strangely enough, one of the things that got me the most as well.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I cannot believe that someone would actually say Australia Judeo Christian.
Speaker:It's one of those things, it's not a, it's not even a real term, as I understand it.
Speaker:I think you did actually expose on that, didn't you, at some stage, Trevor?
Speaker:There was some discussion of a Judeo Christian not being a real term.
Speaker:It's one of those things, it's that it's clear that the Right wing Christian
Speaker:nutters have overtaken the LNP, but then their talking points seem to be
Speaker:coming direct from Fox News in the U.
Speaker:S.
Speaker:Mm, the term, the expression Judeo Christian we did, it like, it doesn't
Speaker:appear in Hansard until around 1980 or something like that and then just
Speaker:gradually, I think Howard, well Howard's probably before 1980 was, anyway,
Speaker:during the Howard era, he was big on pushing this idea of Judeo Christian
Speaker:and it, It came to be accepted as a common sort of expression but it never
Speaker:existed prior to 1970 in Hansard.
Speaker:It hadn't been mentioned at all.
Speaker:It's an American idea because the Jewish lobby is powerful in America.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And so it was an acceptance of Judaism rather than the pogroms that they'd
Speaker:done for the last 2, 000 years.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And I think it was to sort of also avoid claims of anti
Speaker:Semitism at the time as well, so.
Speaker:Probably.
Speaker:Yeah, so, just what a load of Imagine, you've got a chance
Speaker:to speak in Parliament, and that's the best you can do.
Speaker:For goodness sake.
Speaker:Yeah, that was a load of shit, wasn't it?
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:Hey, can you imagine If an atheist stood up and said, of course, all
Speaker:that's wrong with society is the religious nutters, and, you know,
Speaker:society has proved ever since less and less people believe in religion.
Speaker:Ah.
Speaker:One of the things I found most disturbing that he listed amongst the
Speaker:whole evidence of sly and that sort of stuff was marriage breakdowns.
Speaker:And I thought to myself, yeah, okay, so you want everything
Speaker:back in the 1960s, do you?
Speaker:You have to prove that someone did something wrong to you so you can go out
Speaker:there and actually attack them and that sort of stuff and get an at fault divorce.
Speaker:You know, it's just all garbage, wasn't it?
Speaker:And then have the social stigma to deal with.
Speaker:Even when it was legal, you still didn't want to get divorced.
Speaker:I know that.
Speaker:Anyway, that's some of the fine minds we've got operating in our
Speaker:federal government at the moment.
Speaker:Same group of people.
Speaker:Well, thankfully, they're in a federal position, but anyway.
Speaker:Same group of people responsible for our submarine disaster.
Speaker:And yes, dear listener, we've got a little submarine article here.
Speaker:This one have a listen to this.
Speaker:Artificial intelligence, AI, drones, and deep space radar are among the
Speaker:technologies that will be used by Australia and its AUKUS allies.
Speaker:To counter China's aggression in the Pacific, Australia's Defence
Speaker:Minister, Richard Marles, met with his counterparts from the United
Speaker:States and the UK to announce the second pillar of the AUKUS deal.
Speaker:First pillar being subs themselves.
Speaker:And it goes on, While Australia's planned acquisition of nuclear powered submarines
Speaker:has been the main focus, the second pillar focuses on advanced technologies.
Speaker:AI technology will be used on systems.
Speaker:including on the Poseidon aircraft, to process information from
Speaker:sonoboys which detect and transmit underwater data, to improve our
Speaker:anti submarine warfare capabilities, according to a joint statement.
Speaker:I don't know about you, but when Our Defence Minister starts announcing that
Speaker:AI is going to have the capacity to really improve our, our anti submarine capacity,
Speaker:anti submarine warfare capabilities.
Speaker:Do you think to yourself, gee, I wonder if the Chinese will be any good at
Speaker:developing AI and to do exactly the same to 368 billion worth of AI Submarines?
Speaker:Oh, exactly.
Speaker:It'll be like the chatbot.
Speaker:It'll give you false indications of activity with a high
Speaker:probability of assurance.
Speaker:I'm quite sceptical of the capacity of AI, but, you know,
Speaker:I'm open to being Persuaded.
Speaker:But if you accept that it's true, then you have to accept that the other
Speaker:side will be doing the same thing, and perhaps you shouldn't be putting
Speaker:all the eggs in the mud basket.
Speaker:Exactly, and they will be developing countermeasures and all that sort of stuff
Speaker:to defend their own fleet against it.
Speaker:Indeed.
Speaker:So I just think it's a load of nonsense.
Speaker:What do you think of AI generally?
Speaker:Sorry, Scott, go on.
Speaker:The whole Sabre rattling over China is getting out of hand.
Speaker:Because you once used to say it was just on the Coalition side.
Speaker:Now it's getting out of there and to the Labor side.
Speaker:You know, it's One of those things that is getting out of hand and I think to myself,
Speaker:you know, I know you and I disagree over Taiwan, but it's one of those things I
Speaker:think we should use our position as a good friend of China and a good friend of the
Speaker:United States to get them to talk about Taiwan and actually get into the Taiwanese
Speaker:ears and actually say, well, if you agree to give up If you agree to give up your
Speaker:claims out of the South China Sea, you agree to give up any historic claims to
Speaker:any part of China, then we might be able to get you moving towards some sort of
Speaker:diplomatic recognition on the other side.
Speaker:Because it's, it's one of those things, it's is for all intents
Speaker:and purposes its own country.
Speaker:Now I know it's, I know it's still technically part of China and that sort
Speaker:of stuff, but It doesn't look like that.
Speaker:It's got its own currency.
Speaker:It's got its own way of doing things.
Speaker:It is basically its own country now, and it has developed.
Speaker:It has evolved from a military dictatorship under the Kuomintang,
Speaker:which was headed by Chiang Kai shek.
Speaker:That was a military dictatorship there.
Speaker:It was a dictatorship for a very long time, and it wasn't only until the
Speaker:old timers and that sort of stuff voted them out in their parliament.
Speaker:But they have evolved into a democracy now.
Speaker:And I honestly don't believe that they would be particularly happy with having
Speaker:to live under Chinese rule because they don't want the facial recognition
Speaker:cameras and all that sort of stuff set up exactly the way have to in China.
Speaker:Anyway, democracy's over democracy's overrated Scott.
Speaker:But, but anyway.
Speaker:Joe, Joe AI as our resident tech guy.
Speaker:What are your thoughts of artificial intelligence?
Speaker:Because it's sort of the flavour of the month in the sort of podcasting
Speaker:world that I listen to, which is all about how to make and promote and do
Speaker:podcasting and I keep saying AI is going to change all of these things.
Speaker:You got any thoughts on AI?
Speaker:It's, it's a wooly term.
Speaker:It's been around for a long time.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:. And it's always been just around the corner.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:. The, the current flavor is large language models, which effectively use
Speaker:past history to predict the future.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:, and, and it's quite good at doing certain things.
Speaker:So if you want to generate a wall of text that sounds reasonable.
Speaker:It's great if you want factual information.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's fairly hit and miss.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And again, with the, the painting, it takes previous paintings and is able
Speaker:to predict what a painting that you ask it to look like would look like.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:And then it adds and subtracts or subtracts from random noise, actually.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:until it gets the painting that it, it envisages.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:It, it's a tool unlike any other tool.
Speaker:It will have some advantages, but I don't think it's the panacea
Speaker:that everyone keeps growing about.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So reading between the lines, it's being a bit oversold at the moment.
Speaker:Oh absolutely, as is most new technology.
Speaker:Good to know, Joe the tech guy.
Speaker:All right we've often spoken about, uh, the generational divide in our
Speaker:voting and that, well, you mentioned earlier just now, Scott, how people get
Speaker:more conservative as they get older.
Speaker:And, but it's becoming really pronounced here in Australia, but in the UK, I
Speaker:came across this article talking about a YouGov opinion poll data from 2018, and
Speaker:what they were looking at was how people voted if you're over the age of if only
Speaker:people over 65 were allowed to vote, the Labor Party would be all but wiped out.
Speaker:This is based on 2018 data, whereas if only Britain's under 25s MPs whatsoever.
Speaker:So, let me just show you on the screen what it would look like in terms of the
Speaker:difference under 25s versus Over 65s.
Speaker:And it's such a dramatic voting pattern based on age.
Speaker:So, that's happening all over the world, and that was just a representation
Speaker:of what's happening in the UK.
Speaker:I haven't seen anything similar for Australia.
Speaker:I'd be interested to see if there's data like that for Australia.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:That's that one.
Speaker:Not a lot to say, except hmm.
Speaker:And another one here, just, we've been talking about
Speaker:immigration and housing lately.
Speaker:And there's lots of talk about the increase in immigration numbers.
Speaker:And there's a chart on the screen that is showing you the immigration
Speaker:numbers, um, produced by the Guardian, sources the Australian
Speaker:Bureau of Statistics, and obviously negative during the COVID pandemic,
Speaker:and largely a big increase since.
Speaker:Effectively, the argument in the article is that despite the huge
Speaker:boom in recent years in immigration, you've got to remember there was
Speaker:a huge decrease during COVID.
Speaker:So our current immigration level is pretty much what was expected say back in 2018,
Speaker:looking forward where we would have had in terms of immigration over the next,
Speaker:I'm curious as to what happened in COVID, did people actually leave, or was this
Speaker:citizens who couldn't get back, or?
Speaker:Well, people did leave, like all those foreign students left.
Speaker:Back to China?
Speaker:But were, yeah, but they weren't citizens, were they?
Speaker:No, but that's part of our immigration on temporary visas.
Speaker:Yeah, it's one of those things, you've actually got to look at it as a whole lot.
Speaker:And the immigrants were a total group in the, in the, as part of
Speaker:our population, and a number of them did leave during COVID, because they
Speaker:wanted to be back home and that type of thing, where they've I don't know,
Speaker:they probably possibly felt safer and that sort of stuff being at home.
Speaker:Well, they weren't getting any assistance here.
Speaker:We were just leaving people in the lurch and saying, if you can't
Speaker:get back to your own country, well, we're not going to help you.
Speaker:So people had to make it back.
Speaker:Anyway, so, so yeah, that was that one.
Speaker:And, and sort of blaming high immigration for our current housing crisis.
Speaker:is ignoring that fact that we're pretty much at the immigration level we
Speaker:should have been, um, or what we were expecting it to be prior to the pandemic.
Speaker:And so it's complicated.
Speaker:There's all sorts of factors going in there.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Henry Kissinger.
Speaker:He died.
Speaker:Any thoughts on Henry Kissinger?
Speaker:Is it rest in peace or good riddance, Scott or Jane?
Speaker:I think it's a bit of good riddance, you know, because if you look at what
Speaker:he actually was involved in and that sort of stuff, Southeast Asia is a Hell
Speaker:of a, has got a hell of a lot fewer citizens because of Kissinger's behavior.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:You know, he was the one behind the bombing campaign.
Speaker:It in Cambodia.
Speaker:He really did fuck that country up very badly.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:You know, it, it's one of those things like, you know, they reckon
Speaker:that the Kah Rous was a, a direct result of the US bombing campaign.
Speaker:Well, that wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:And then, you know, the assistance for Cambodia or.
Speaker:Kampuchea, as it was called then, was from Vietnam, and because they got their,
Speaker:because they got their help from the wrong side of the Cold War, the Yanks turned
Speaker:around and said, no, you can't have that.
Speaker:So they poured military aid and that sort of stuff into
Speaker:the hands of the Khmer Rouge.
Speaker:Well, Jesus Christ, you know, that was ridiculous.
Speaker:And clearly Kissinger's fingerprints were all over that.
Speaker:And years afterwards, when the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge were well known.
Speaker:America was still recognising the Khmer Rouge as the legitimate
Speaker:government in Cambridgeshire.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, so he was secretary of state and national security advisor to
Speaker:both President Nixon and President Ford from 69 to 77, but he was this
Speaker:informal advisor to lots of presidents, including Reagan and Clinton.
Speaker:The two bushes and Donald Trump, a notable exception to Kissinger's influence in
Speaker:Washington was the Carter administration.
Speaker:And you know, not, not only was it filthy foreigners that got killed by him.
Speaker:mm-Hmm.
Speaker:It was alleged that during the Paris Peace Talks where a piece was on the cards.
Speaker:Apparently he said, no, no if, if you don't sign up to this peace accord, you'll
Speaker:get a bit better deal in the future so that he could win the election or rather
Speaker:his president could win the election.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:This is in terms of the Vietnam War.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And extending the Vietnam War.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Quite clear evidence that he was Costing thousands of American lives.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:According to this article from the Young Menagerie blog, I think
Speaker:it was, kissinger's record as a warmonger is bloody indeed,
Speaker:includes encouraging Indonesia's President Suharto to kill up to 1.
Speaker:2 million alleged communists in purges he advocated the illegal carpet bombing in
Speaker:Cambodia, um, advised Pakistan's President to crush an aspiring political movement.
Speaker:Seeking autonomy for East Pakistan, he encouraged Cejado to invade East
Speaker:Timor, giving the green light to a neo fascist military junta to overthrow
Speaker:Argentina's Isabel Perón, and schemed with a cabal of Latin American neo
Speaker:fascist dictators to assassinate their political foes in Operation Condor.
Speaker:Famously said about Chile, you know, there's no way the United States are going
Speaker:to put up with a bunch of communists.
Speaker:I'm going to do something about it.
Speaker:So, got rid of TND.
Speaker:TND.
Speaker:He openly called for the invasion of Iraq, supported the invasion of Afghanistan,
Speaker:and on the good side, Kissinger wanted to normalise relations with China.
Speaker:So if you wanted to say something positive about him.
Speaker:He was involved in the normalization of relations with China.
Speaker:I think that was inevitable because China was such a large country that
Speaker:it was, it was going to, it was going to throw off the shackles of poverty
Speaker:and that sort of stuff eventually.
Speaker:Something that was that big, you couldn't keep down forever.
Speaker:It was going to grow, and with growth comes economic growth, and then they were
Speaker:going to end up being what they are today.
Speaker:So I honestly believe that it would have been very foolish for the Yanks not to
Speaker:get on board with that, because that would have just, it would have made them
Speaker:look ridiculous if they were, if they were trying to ignore the legitimate
Speaker:government of the People's Republic of China, and saying, well, you're not really
Speaker:the legitimate government, the legitimate government is the Republic of China.
Speaker:You know, it's one of those things I just think Funnily enough,
Speaker:China was kind of like the buggy man it is today, in a sense.
Speaker:But, Yeah, it was, it was.
Speaker:Because, you know, they got involved, they got involved in that war between
Speaker:the North and the South of North and South Korea and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:And they took the Yanks to the brink of defeat.
Speaker:But the Yanks actually held their line and that sort of stuff.
Speaker:And they ended up settling over the 38th parallel.
Speaker:Anyway, Gough Whitlam.
Speaker:Independently reopened relations between Australia and China and would it have
Speaker:been Billy McMahon was the liberal leader at the time basically accused Whitlam of
Speaker:being a foolish commie sympathiser and then unbeknownst to them Kissinger was
Speaker:smoothing the way for Nixon to appear and go over there and smooth relations and
Speaker:the Liberal Party looked like a bunch of idiots because they were criticising Goff.
Speaker:And then, within 12 months, there was the US doing exactly what Goff had been
Speaker:doing, so, So that was, um, Kissinger, Goff Whitlam, China, in that story.
Speaker:Paul Keating came out and made some favourable remarks
Speaker:about Kissinger, so Did he?
Speaker:Yes, yep so, again, it was to do with China, because Keating worked with
Speaker:Kissinger in the China Development Bank, which underwrote new Chinese
Speaker:city plans, so, possibly because it was on the topic of China that he
Speaker:felt favourably to him, but towards him, but yeah, Keating came out with
Speaker:some positive words for Kissinger.
Speaker:Yeah, and the other thing, if you're looking for something positive as well,
Speaker:is that according to former Australian diplomat Tony Kevin, Kissinger was
Speaker:sympathetic towards Russia's perspective on Ukraine, that becoming a member of
Speaker:NATO would compromise Russia's security, and he virtually predicted the Russian
Speaker:invasion if things did not improve.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:Right, COVID.
Speaker:You still get people today talking about, ah, it's at a function on Sunday, and
Speaker:maybe it was because Palaszczuk, at that point, had announced her resignation and
Speaker:just, again, it was an older crowd who were just really ready to bag, uh, what
Speaker:had happened in terms of quarantining and, and our response to COVID in Australia.
Speaker:And I didn't, I held back because I was a good guest.
Speaker:I don't always have to rant.
Speaker:Sometimes I do bite my tongue and held back, but I wanted to say.
Speaker:What the fuck do you think happened in other countries?
Speaker:Like, there were, the excess death rates in other countries was huge, and they
Speaker:had huge problems, and particularly if you're in Queensland, it wasn't
Speaker:the most unpleasant experience.
Speaker:And the whole point was, we waited until a vaccine came, and we got one, and
Speaker:then we could reopen, and, you know.
Speaker:Yeah, because it would have less of an impact.
Speaker:Yeah, so, even with hindsight looking at it, All perfectly made sense to do what
Speaker:was done and these people want to go, Oh, what a big, what a big hullabaloo
Speaker:they have enough than that was, you know, why did we go through all that?
Speaker:And, and we wouldn't do that again.
Speaker:And I'm thinking, well, if, if thousands, tens of thousands of people
Speaker:are dying and you might have to wait 18 months or two years for a vaccine.
Speaker:Well, yeah, we would do the same again, so anyway, I've got a chart to show
Speaker:you, which is a comparison of the OECD countries health system spending during
Speaker:the, uh, two years from 2020 to 2022.
Speaker:So really the, the main first two years of the COVID pandemic.
Speaker:I'll put that up and here it is.
Speaker:So this is spending on health care, hmm, maybe can I make that bigger?
Speaker:Joe's disappeared, hasn't he?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, okay.
Speaker:Let me just look at my version.
Speaker:Australia increased spending by 1.
Speaker:7 percent above what we would normally have spent, and the average was 9%.
Speaker:So in terms of spending.
Speaker:On extra on health, on health care marginal 1.
Speaker:7 percent more than we normally would have.
Speaker:The average was 9 percent more.
Speaker:So, in terms of spending, but then going to the excess deaths and in
Speaker:terms of Australia, the red one down the bottom there, excess deaths of 4.
Speaker:4%, whereas the average was 14%.
Speaker:And so we got a really good, um, result compared to other countries in the OECD.
Speaker:And just, you know, don't want to give us enough credit for,
Speaker:for the way that was handled.
Speaker:and, you know, it didn't always relate to the, the The measures that were
Speaker:taken, or the money that was spent.
Speaker:So, Mexico had the lowest health system spending, and the
Speaker:highest excess mortality rate.
Speaker:JaPan Spent less than expected on health care, but had a great
Speaker:low excess mortality rate.
Speaker:But that's to do with cultural issues in Japan, so an already healthy population,
Speaker:mask wearing before the pandemic.
Speaker:It's fairly normal and all that sort of stuff in Japan.
Speaker:Extensive vaccination uptake, free medical care, and just social
Speaker:compliance with public health measures.
Speaker:So, there were You know cultural issues that were at play there.
Speaker:So, so yeah, do you guys come across?
Speaker:Have you ever seen the Tim Minchin Beat Poem Storm, talking about
Speaker:being a good guest at your party?
Speaker:No, what is he saying?
Speaker:So he's at a dinner party, and there's a hippie there who's making all sorts of
Speaker:assertions, and he has a bit of a rant.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And I can just see you doing the same thing, so And he, and he's
Speaker:doing it at a dinner party, is he?
Speaker:At a dinner party, yeah.
Speaker:Well, you see, I, I, I think I can read the room and decide whether it Okay.
Speaker:Now's the time or not, so, you know.
Speaker:And it's whether it's the host who's making the outrageous allegation
Speaker:or whether it's Another guest.
Speaker:That's one of the factors to take into account.
Speaker:So, oh yeah there we go.
Speaker:Landon in the chat room says, I got COVID in December 2020.
Speaker:16 days in bed with fever and feeling like death.
Speaker:I couldn't go to a doctor because they'd have carted me off to a fever hospital.
Speaker:Okay, well, that's in China where you were compulsorily sent to a fever hospital.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Okay, and I think they're mentioning that Kissinger went out with
Speaker:Candice Bergman at one stage.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Quite an age difference there, wasn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Last week, I did a thing on the Identity Trap by Sasha Monk.
Speaker:Sorry about the editing on that.
Speaker:I was using Descript.
Speaker:And it was a little bit harsh and a few things got chopped out.
Speaker:And I did it on a device down the Gold Coast, so when I'm back on the Gold Coast,
Speaker:if I've got time, I'll just go back to the original file and only just edit it
Speaker:a bit lighter, because I noticed that some words got chopped off, but anyway.
Speaker:Got some feedback.
Speaker:One writer wrote, Hi Trevor, I've started listening to your episode on
Speaker:identity, and I'm afraid you really seem to be seeking out Just the information
Speaker:which reaffirms your own beliefs.
Speaker:Well, couple of thoughts on that.
Speaker:I never have that criticism when I bag religion, submarines, boomer
Speaker:friendly taxes, the LNP, Trump, etc.
Speaker:But I've had it a few times when it comes to the voice.
Speaker:And so, if you feel that way with the voice, where we disagree, but not
Speaker:on issues where we agree, Then that says something about you, not me.
Speaker:So, I think what happens with The Voice is people don't like my argument, they
Speaker:disagree with it and then start looking at things like whether I'm grabbing
Speaker:information that just reaffirms my own beliefs and complaining about
Speaker:it, yet they won't complain when I do that on every other topic,
Speaker:where they happen to agree with it.
Speaker:So Consistency, ladies and gentlemen is important.
Speaker:And and this wasn't one where I actually was seeking out the information.
Speaker:This actually just fell in my lap because Yasha Monk was interviewed
Speaker:on Late Night Live with Philip Adams.
Speaker:So if you want to hear more from him go on to Late Night Live with Philip Adams.
Speaker:And even later in this episode, I'm going to be talking about articles
Speaker:by Ross Stitt and Chris Trotter.
Speaker:Looking at the Maori situation in New Zealand, and you know, I didn't, I'm not
Speaker:here, that came from the John Menendee blog, so I don't sit at their computer
Speaker:and Google find me left wingers who have turned against identity politics or
Speaker:something like that, it's just whether they come across my newsfeed or not,
Speaker:but of course I'd be filtering the newsfeed and I might well see things
Speaker:that, are contrary to the argument I want to perhaps persuade you.
Speaker:I don't really actually want to persuade people about The Voice.
Speaker:I just want to say that there is an alternative thought process there.
Speaker:I don't really care whether people agree or not.
Speaker:I'm not trying to persuade, but the point is this is a podcast.
Speaker:This is not a court of law or a commission of inquiry.
Speaker:And provided I'm not misrepresenting the other side, I don't have to preach for the
Speaker:other side and give you the full nuts and bolts of what the other side is saying.
Speaker:I can simply summarise briefly what their position is and then go as
Speaker:long as I like in encountering it.
Speaker:It's a goddamn personal podcast for God's sake.
Speaker:Sorry, Joe.
Speaker:But I, I, I, I think with the voice and with a lot of other things.
Speaker:Where identity politics are in play, it's been very much a misrepresentation
Speaker:of the other side as racist.
Speaker:It's been lazy argumentation, it hasn't been a good, these are the
Speaker:real reasons you need the voice.
Speaker:It's been a, if you don't vote for the voice, you must be a racist.
Speaker:And that's just lazy argumentation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like my motivations, my motivations.
Speaker:are irrelevant, so what does it matter if I'm seeking out information which affirms
Speaker:my beliefs, if in fact the information is correct and the arguments are sound?
Speaker:You know, that's the important point.
Speaker:Is it actually a sound argument?
Speaker:Deal with those issues, dear listener.
Speaker:If you feel compelled to write in and criticise, Then don't waste time
Speaker:questioning my motives or my biases, because sure, I've got a bias on
Speaker:issues, and sure, I've got motivations, but what's it matter if I'm right?
Speaker:So, deal with the substantive issues.
Speaker:Nobody has, except Liam, who came on the podcast and gave a good account of, uh, Of
Speaker:himself and his you know, we ran through issues and that was genuinely the only
Speaker:time where somebody has attempted to deal with the issues rather than deal with,
Speaker:um, aspersions on character or motivations so yeah but if you are going to send your
Speaker:criticisms, a quick warning is I'm losing patience, I'm, I'm going to be abrupt and
Speaker:less gentle than I used to be, you know.
Speaker:It's kind of like where I got to with The Twelfth Man, where I just
Speaker:got less gentle with The Twelfth Man after a while, and he got, he sort of
Speaker:felt that, I think, and I've kind of reached that point where I'm going to
Speaker:be more abrupt and less gentle, so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, it's one of those things, I don't think you're abrupt with me,
Speaker:you know, even though you and I both disagree in the voice and that type
Speaker:of thing, it's just that I could see where you were coming from.
Speaker:I could understand your arguments and that sort of stuff, but
Speaker:I didn't agree with them.
Speaker:Perfectly fine.
Speaker:Yeah, that was, and that was principally because I was looking at
Speaker:it from a different point of view.
Speaker:I was looking at it from a more emotional point of view, I think,
Speaker:more so than anything else.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You had a different priority.
Speaker:Oops.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And I didn't think you were racist or anything else.
Speaker:It's just and that is what I found very disappointing about the yes side
Speaker:because Joe was bang on the money there.
Speaker:That you said that the arguments from the yes case was, well, if you're not
Speaker:voting no, if you're voting no, you're obviously racist, which is nonsense.
Speaker:You know, it's, if it was all racist and that sort of stuff that we're voting
Speaker:that way, then you'd have to look at
Speaker:you'd have to look at some, you'd have to conclude that around about 60 70
Speaker:percent of the population is racist.
Speaker:Which is the really sad thing is that people are prepared to conclude that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which I don't think that we are.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:You know, we do have some issues around race in this country.
Speaker:There's no point denying that, but I do not believe that you would be that racist
Speaker:to say this is you could actually say that we are racist based on that vote.
Speaker:Maybe New Zealand is full of racists.
Speaker:We're going to talk about New Zealand now.
Speaker:It's quite interesting what's been going on over there.
Speaker:So, the country's new coalition government was sworn in and said that it's going
Speaker:to review the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, which upholds Maori
Speaker:rights, including the right to autonomy.
Speaker:So the government has announced at least a dozen policies that provide
Speaker:for Maori will be repealed or reviewed.
Speaker:Bunch of racists over there.
Speaker:Must be.
Speaker:They voted for a government that went into an election willing to remove race
Speaker:based policies that favoured the Maori.
Speaker:Have you heard anybody Have you heard anybody complaining about what a
Speaker:black mark this was on New Zealand's character that they elected these guys?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:But who knows of any famous Kiwis?
Speaker:Well, all famous Kiwis eventually become famous Australians.
Speaker:Don't they?
Speaker:Well, there is that.
Speaker:We co opt them.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So, announcing the changes on Friday, Luxon, the Prime Minister, said voters
Speaker:wanted services provided on the basis of need, not race, and he was strengthening
Speaker:democracy for all New Zealanders.
Speaker:Bunch of racists must have voted for a guy who'd say that.
Speaker:So the Treaty of Waitangi is an agreement reached in 1840
Speaker:between the British and the Maori.
Speaker:While it is not a legal document, it forms New Zealand's
Speaker:constitution and its principles.
Speaker:Which include the right of Maori for self determination and the protection of Maori
Speaker:interests are woven into legislation.
Speaker:This began in the 1970s with the establishment of the Waitangi Tribunal,
Speaker:a commission of inquiry that investigates treaty breaches by the Crown.
Speaker:Now, I'm not sure where I got that statement from.
Speaker:I think this was from the Guardian.
Speaker:As to what the Treaty of Waitangi says, I'm going to be quoting
Speaker:from a guy called Chris Trotter Who is a lefty in New Zealand.
Speaker:I think he's kind of like a Guy Rundle New Zealand's version of a Guy Rundle
Speaker:and he Argues it seems to me that the Treaty of Waitangi did not talk about
Speaker:cooperative government Can you possibly imagine a bunch of white fellows
Speaker:who thought the Maori were savages?
Speaker:can you possibly contemplate that they would have signed a treaty that
Speaker:allowed for cooperative governance?
Speaker:He says it doesn't do that, but anyway, no doubt there are lots
Speaker:of different opinions on that one.
Speaker:New Zealand let me just go into, so, from the John Menardew blog, I came
Speaker:across this article by Ross Stitt.
Speaker:Just came across my news feed, didn't actively seek it out, but of course when
Speaker:I saw it I thought that's interesting and that's relevant to our discussion here.
Speaker:So, he said that, You know, The Voice was a disaster for the Labor
Speaker:government, Anthony Albanese.
Speaker:But events in the Middle East, the interest rate hikes, the High
Speaker:Court decision on immigration detention, cost of living crisis.
Speaker:Basically provided a distraction from that loss.
Speaker:Scott, would you agree with that?
Speaker:Like, does it seem, other than on this podcast, where I'm just out beating
Speaker:the drum still, occasionally, sort of, it's done and dusted as an issue,
Speaker:largely, and people have moved on and there has been a series of sort of
Speaker:biggish news items that have pushed it.
Speaker:Into the far reaches of people's memories?
Speaker:Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker:I think it has been basically forgotten by the public and that sort of thing.
Speaker:It's just one of those things, clearly the government has been
Speaker:bruised by it, so they've got to get on, dust themselves off and move on.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:So when asked about his commitment to the Uluru Statement from the Heart on the 15th
Speaker:of October, Um, Albanese expressed his respect for the outcome of the referendum.
Speaker:There was no mention of treaty or truth telling and no doubt the a LP strategists
Speaker:are currently considering their, considering their political options.
Speaker:It would be surprising if they weren't also analysing New
Speaker:Zealand's latest election.
Speaker:The rights of the Maori population featured in the campaign and the
Speaker:subsequent negotiations led to the country's new coalition comprising
Speaker:the National Party, Libertarian ACT Party and the NZ First Party, uh,
Speaker:according to this article by Ross Stitt.
Speaker:The previous Labor government, which was Jacinda Ardern before she
Speaker:resigned and then her replacement, took many steps aimed at improving the
Speaker:lives of Indigenous New Zealanders.
Speaker:This included establishing a separate Maori Health Authority
Speaker:commissioning a report on meeting the goals of the UN Declaration on
Speaker:the Rights of Indigenous People and promoting the use of Maori language.
Speaker:And pursuing co governance, the sharing of certain governance arrangements
Speaker:between Maori and non Maori.
Speaker:So, according to Ross Stitt, many of these steps proved controversial
Speaker:and were opposed during the election by the parties that ultimately won.
Speaker:And the support for the Jacinda Ardern Labor government, I can't remember the
Speaker:name of her Its support crashed from 50% in 2020 to 27 percent in that election.
Speaker:That's a huge crash, Scott.
Speaker:50 down to 27 percent is a lot.
Speaker:There are many explanations for the wipeout, but significant sections
Speaker:of the Kiwi electorate rejected Labor's progressive agenda on Maori
Speaker:issues, and this was articulated by Chris Trotter, one of New Zealand's
Speaker:leading left wing political analysts.
Speaker:In an article titled, Losing the Working Class.
Speaker:And Trotter argues that the co governance initiative was a crucial
Speaker:catalyst for electoral defeat.
Speaker:And You didn't see my message?
Speaker:We can hear you there.
Speaker:Hang on a second, Joe.
Speaker:I'm going to mute Joe, because he's Yeah, probably half an hour or so.
Speaker:Now I've muted Joe, he's having a private conversation.
Speaker:Where was I?
Speaker:What happened was Trotter contends that as a result, when the Labor government
Speaker:of Jacinda Ardern moved forward with Indigenous co governance, the sovereignty
Speaker:grenade finally exploded, and Labor discovered what it would take to make
Speaker:the working class stop voting for it.
Speaker:And what else did he say here?
Speaker:Significantly, the leaders of both ACT, A C T, and New Zealand First, so these
Speaker:are the two of the parties in this new coalition in New Zealand, the leaders
Speaker:of two of those parties, guess what?
Speaker:They're Maori.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:I guess people would treat them like a Jacinta, Nampy, Jimba, Pryce.
Speaker:They're obviously, yeah, they're obviously coconuts.
Speaker:Just they're not, not the right type of Maori.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Given the voice referendum and the Kiwi election, ALB strategists might worry that
Speaker:pursuing too progressive an Indigenous agenda in Australia could alienate many
Speaker:of the traditional working class voters.
Speaker:So basically saying, based on what's happened in New Zealand, Labor would
Speaker:have to tread carefully in Australia if it pursues things like Treaty Your.
Speaker:Self determination.
Speaker:Yeah, which I agree wholeheartedly with them on, because it's just that if they
Speaker:were to actually pursue that line Then they would potentially be wiped out
Speaker:because the coalition would actually say, no, we're not going to go that far.
Speaker:Yeah, it's probably why Palaszczuk decided to abandon the whole treaty
Speaker:negotiations up here because the coalition had politicized its response to the
Speaker:voice, which let the opposition leader, Christopher Foley, the option that he
Speaker:could actually attack the Labour Party over the negotiations on a treaty.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:She cleverly said.
Speaker:Well, unless you get bipartisan support for these things,
Speaker:there's no point pursuing it.
Speaker:And the LNP is not going to come to the party, so we're not even going to bother.
Speaker:Which is a very clever political move.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Which is precisely what Albanese should have done with the voice.
Speaker:He should have actually said, look, we can't proceed with it because the
Speaker:coalition's going to say no, you guys work on the coalition, get them to
Speaker:over the line and that sort of stuff to say, yes, then we'll pursue it then.
Speaker:Maybe people wouldn't have believed him.
Speaker:I think, you remember the opinion polls were 60 40 in the
Speaker:beginning, so it probably needed that defeat to convince people.
Speaker:He could say it now, when it comes to treaty, or other sorts
Speaker:of self determination things.
Speaker:He could run the argument and people would believe him, but I don't, maybe
Speaker:they wouldn't have believed him before.
Speaker:So, one final thing on the Maori is that atheism is on the rise.
Speaker:This is an article from The Conversation.
Speaker:And the study was a particularly small sample size, so it was more about
Speaker:qualitative rather than quantitative.
Speaker:The authors wrote that religious belief amongst the Maori
Speaker:has shifted significantly.
Speaker:And, um, actually this figure's okay.
Speaker:The number of Maori identifying as having no religion in the census Between
Speaker:2006 and 2018, increased from 36.
Speaker:5 percent to 53.
Speaker:5%.
Speaker:So that was the increase in the number of Maori having no religion.
Speaker:And Christianity affiliation for Maori fell from 46 to 29.
Speaker:Now that's in a 12 year period.
Speaker:Now, are the Maori simply rejecting Christianity?
Speaker:Or are they rejecting all supernatural, all supernatural phenomena,
Speaker:including traditional Maori beliefs?
Speaker:And these academics argue, our research examined the
Speaker:apparent rise of Maori atheism.
Speaker:We found the colonial history of religion was a driving force for
Speaker:Maori who identified as atheists.
Speaker:So they found people were Rejecting Christianity because they saw it as
Speaker:a colonial sort of cultural feature that wasn't suitable to the Maori.
Speaker:Scott and Joe?
Speaker:I've often been bemused by our Indigenous brothers and sisters.
Speaker:Attachment to Christianity and not, and not saying that as a
Speaker:dilution of indigenous culture here.
Speaker:Was it not a Native American who said, when the first white men came, they
Speaker:had the Bibles and we had the land?
Speaker:We closed our eyes to pray, and when we opened them again, we had
Speaker:the Bibles and they had the land.
Speaker:That's a good line.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Here's another one from the same research.
Speaker:We also found Maori atheists said they experienced discrimination for their
Speaker:lack of religion and their Maori ness was questioned within their community or work.
Speaker:Black people in America have said the same thing.
Speaker:About Native Americans?
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:Black people.
Speaker:So, African Americans.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Have said that effectively, Christianity is part of the
Speaker:identity of being black in America.
Speaker:And if you are an atheist, your very identity is being
Speaker:questioned by your community.
Speaker:So, it finishes off here, our research highlights the diversity of non
Speaker:religion amongst Maori, which is neither reflected in representation
Speaker:for Maori, nor considered in Maori Crown relations, and it's complex.
Speaker:Anyway, link in the show notes, relevant sections, but yeah I wonder if that sort
Speaker:of discussion will find its way into, uh, Australian Indigenous arguments
Speaker:about whether Australian Indigenous people will drop Christianity, seeing
Speaker:it as a sort of a colonial and cultural imposition, and whether being non
Speaker:spiritual Will call into question your legitimate aspiration of being Indigenous.
Speaker:See if those arguments make their way across the Tasman.
Speaker:Certainly, certainly in the RI figures for Queensland.
Speaker:Unadmittedly, I've not seen them for several years.
Speaker:But the number of native beliefs or whatever the class is called, um, was
Speaker:considerably lower than the Christian.
Speaker:And I, I wonder how many Aboriginals still hold to traditional beliefs, as
Speaker:opposed to some form of Christianity blended, possibly, with the surviving I
Speaker:predict there, if you really questioned, there would be a surprisingly high
Speaker:number of people who have a confusing mix of traditional spiritual, um, belief.
Speaker:With Christian belief in some, in some, I mean, the Holy Trinity is inexplicable
Speaker:in itself, but adding Yes traditional spiritual beliefs into that mix would be
Speaker:something else again, and I think there would be a number of, a high number of
Speaker:people who somehow would adhere to both in some complex mix that sounds impossible.
Speaker:But when forced, say, uh, with one period of religious instruction
Speaker:at school to choose between them, which one would they choose?
Speaker:Yeah, well, whoever offers the best lollies and the most entertainment.
Speaker:Well, possibly, yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right, well, that's enough, I think.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Trip around the world, New Zealand, will that transfer to Australia?
Speaker:We'll find out in the Next year.
Speaker:This is going to be the last episode for this year.
Speaker:Take a bit of a break, come back in the new year, unless
Speaker:something extraordinary happens.
Speaker:Any other thoughts, gentlemen?
Speaker:Any other closing comments you'd like to make, or just see you later?
Speaker:You know, not in a Christian terms, but Merry Christmas to all our listeners, and,
Speaker:Nadori Claren to you, my love, Sharon.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Happy holidays.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Indeed, or even happy holiday, which is the Pastafarian greeting.
Speaker:Oh, is it?
Speaker:Yeah, I know that.
Speaker:Singular.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Singular, yes.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:There we go.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:Well, we're done for this episode.
Speaker:We're done for the year.
Speaker:Keep an eye you should be following us on Facebook because you'll get
Speaker:notifications when our episode's coming out, so keep an eye on that to find
Speaker:out when the next one's going to be.
Speaker:It'll be a Tuesday night sometime in the new year.
Speaker:Talk to you then.
Speaker:Bye for now.
Speaker:Yeah, that's a good night from me.
Speaker:And it's a good night from him.
Speaker:Good night.
