full

Episode 430 - Bogdan Syrotiuk.

In episode 430 of The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast, the hosts delve into the arrest and imprisonment of Bogdan Syrotiuk, a young leader from the Young Guard of Bolshevik Leninists. Joining the panel are Max and Oscar from the Socialist Equality Party, who discuss the political motivations behind Syrotiuk's incarceration by Ukrainian authorities. The conversation explores broader issues of political repression, international socialist movements, and the ongoing conflicts involving Ukraine, Russia, and NATO. The episode also critiques the complicity of leftist organizations and unions in supporting imperialist agendas while emphasizing the need for workers' committees and international socialist unity.

00:00 Introduction to the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove Podcast

00:57 Special Guests: Max and Oscar from the Socialist Equality Party

02:15 The Arrest of Comrade Bogdan Syrotiuk

03:15 Political Context and Charges Against Bogdan

04:54 Ideological Stance of the Socialist Equality Party

07:41 Broader Implications of the Ukrainian Conflict

09:43 International Reactions and Comparisons

12:52 The Role of the Young Guard of Bolshevik Leninists

15:28 Critique of Western Media and Government Narratives

31:00 The Gaza Conflict and Its Global Impact

37:05 Union Movements and Political Activism

43:05 Formation of Rank and File Committees

44:10 Union vs. Workers Committees: Key Differences

44:43 Critique of Union Bureaucracy

46:01 Union Failures in Healthcare

47:17 International Union Comparisons

50:01 The Role of Workers Committees

52:09 Capitalism and Workers' Struggles

54:06 Educating Workers on Socialism

56:50 The Breakdown of Capitalism

57:49 Building a Socialist Movement

01:01:07 Perspectives on China

01:08:34 Critique of Yanis Varoufakis and Syriza

01:14:57 Campaign for Freeing Bogdan

01:18:24 Conclusion and Call to Action

Article about Bogdan

Link to petition

To financially support the Podcast you can make:

We Livestream every Monday night at 8:00 pm Brisbane time. Follow us on Facebook or YouTube. Watch us live and join the discussion in the chat room.

You can sign up for our newsletter, which links to articles that Trevor has highlighted as potentially interesting and that may be discussed on the podcast. You will get 3 emails per week.

We have a website. www.ironfistvelvetglove.com.au

You can email us. The address is trevor@ironfistvelvetglove.com.au

You can send us a voicemail message at Speakpipe

We have a sister podcast called IFVG Evergreen. It is a collection of evergreen content from the weekly podcast.

Transcripts started in episode 324. You can use this link to search our transcripts. Type "iron fist velvet glove" into the search directory, click on our podcast and then do a word search. It even has a player which will play the relevant section. It is incredibly quick.

Transcript
Sir David:

Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over

Sir David:

time, evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

Sir David:

But today, we observe a small tribe, akin to a group of meerkats, that

Sir David:

gather together atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the

Sir David:

current events of their city, their country, and their world at large.

Sir David:

Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

Sir David:

Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Trev:

Hello and welcome back, dear listener.

Trev:

This is the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast, episode 430.

Trev:

We might have a few new people watching or listening to the podcast,

Trev:

so a bit of a brief explanation.

Trev:

Normally it's a panel discussion with myself and two friends, Scott

Trev:

and Joe, where we talk about news and politics and sex and religion.

Trev:

This one's a bit different because, um, on this occasion I've got Max and Oskar

Trev:

from the Socialist Equality Party and they're going to be talking about Comrade

Trev:

Bogdan Seretuk, who is being held in a Ukrainian jail and we're going to be

Trev:

talking about all sorts of other stuff.

Trev:

So, first of all, Uh, Max, welcome aboard to the podcast.

Trev:

Thank you, Trevor.

Trev:

Thanks for having us.

Trev:

And Oscar as well.

Trev:

Welcome aboard.

Oscar:

G'day Trevor.

Trev:

Yep.

Trev:

So Max and Oscar were on the podcast in the lead up to the previous

Trev:

federal election and gave their pitch for the Socialist Equality Party.

Trev:

Look that one up, it's somewhere there in the archives.

Trev:

And um, so anyway, Max reached out to me and asked to come on board and

Trev:

talk about what's happened with Bogdan Saratog and to inform people of that, so.

Trev:

I don't know, Max, um, I'm happy just to be freewheeling.

Trev:

Did you want to quickly tell people where you're from and

Trev:

then launch into the community?

Trev:

What's happening in the Ukraine?

Trev:

Just for people who are totally unfamiliar with the Socialist

Trev:

Equality Party, and the two

Max:

of you.

Trev:

Yeah,

Max:

sure.

Max:

Yeah.

Max:

So my name's Max Boddy.

Max:

I'm a member of the Socialist Equality Party.

Max:

I'm based in Sydney, in New South Wales.

Max:

And we're here today to discuss, as Trevor indicated at the beginning, the

Max:

arrest of our comrade Bogdan Seretuk.

Max:

Who's a 25 year old leader of the Young Guard of Bolshevik Leninists

Max:

who operate both in Ukraine, Russia, and across the kind of former USSR.

Max:

And as Trevor said at the beginning, he was arrested on April 25th by the

Max:

notorious State Security Service, of the fascistic Zelensky regime in the Ukraine.

Max:

Uh, I think his arrest and imprisonment is nothing short of

Max:

a complete political frame up.

Max:

Bogdan, as with the YGBL, which is the Young Guard of Bolshevik

Max:

Leninists, their entire, their basic program is that of opposition to

Max:

the US NATO led war against Russia.

Max:

Uh, in the Ukraine and calls for, in opposition to this war, the unification

Max:

of the Ukrainian, Russian and world working class on a socialist basis.

Max:

If I can be permitted to quote from what the sb uh, SBU is charging him

Max:

with, they say that, you know, and he's being charged, I should add with

Max:

high treason, which carries a, a, a prison sentence of 15 years, which in

Max:

Ukraine is essentially a death sentence.

Max:

Um, and the basis of this charge is as follows, that over the

Max:

past two years he has quote.

Max:

being engaged in the preparation and publications commissioned

Max:

by representatives of a Russian propaganda and information agency,

Max:

the World Socialist Website.

Max:

Now, the record of the World Socialist Website, which is the publication of

Max:

our party, uh, will show that it is a fundamental political fact of our

Max:

opposition, uh, to a Putin regime.

Max:

and the oligarchs that he represents.

Max:

And so this frame up, uh, is, uh, when it's removed in that sense of

Max:

the lies, of the obfuscations that is put forward, what Bogdan's crime

Max:

is essentially a thought crime.

Max:

That he is putting forward ideas that the Zelinsky regime opposed because

Max:

it opposes their, uh, reactionary war.

Max:

So

Trev:

he essentially is opposing the Ukrainian government position, as well

Trev:

as opposing Putin and Russian invasion.

Trev:

So he's opposing both of those, and they're focusing on the opposition to,

Trev:

well, they're saying he's a mouthpiece for the Russian government in what he's

Trev:

been publishing on the socialist website.

Max:

That's right.

Max:

And it should be noted that the Young Guard of Bolshevik Leninists

Max:

is an adherence of the International Committee of the Fourth International,

Max:

of which, you know, that's our party.

Max:

We're the Australian section of the International Committee

Max:

of the Fourth International.

Trev:

Yes.

Trev:

So, would that group ordinarily be aligned with a group like, uh, Russians

Trev:

and, um, or Putin's Russia, for example?

Trev:

Is the, the International Committee of the Fourth, um, Internationale, is that right?

Trev:

Yeah.

Trev:

Ideologically, do you have much in common with, with Putin's Russia?

Max:

Not at all.

Max:

I mean, the ICFI has opposed, uh, the Putin regime, uh, from its very inception.

Max:

I mean, we draw out the history of the, the origins of the Putin oligarchy.

Max:

I mean, its emergence was following the final betrayal of

Max:

the Stalinist bureaucracy, which liquidated the Soviet Union in 1991.

Max:

Essentially stole, uh, the various, uh, assets, uh, state run assets,

Max:

handed it over to these oligarchs that now Putin represents, uh, and have,

Max:

you know, existed over a society of massive inequality, uh, as a result.

Max:

And we oppose both the Putin regime and The Stalinist bureaucracy

Max:

that they trace their origins to, because we are Trotskyists.

Trev:

So ideologically your group, including Bogdan, are all for the

Trev:

workers and for social equality and you would view Russia's Putin as an

Trev:

oligarchic capitalist type organisation.

Trev:

Last things that you would care to sort of, um, And I guess that's, and I

Trev:

sort of, I was reading, dear listener, there will be a link in the show

Trev:

notes to a PDF, which is the, uh, the sort of the text that you've written,

Trev:

Max, and maybe with Oscar as well, but, um, which, which gives all the

Trev:

details of, of, of your full spiel.

Trev:

So, um, from memory.

Trev:

The sort of indictment that has been made against him looks at one of the articles

Trev:

and basically looks at the points where he criticises Ukraine but ignores the

Trev:

parts where he criticises Russia and then just deems him to be a Russian asset and

Trev:

a spy and a propaganda outlet for them.

Trev:

Um, why?

Trev:

Why, what's the motivation of the, of the actors here?

Trev:

If, if it's so clear that They've picked and choose, picked and

Trev:

chosen excerpts that suit them and ignored the excerpts that don't.

Trev:

What's the rationale here, Max?

Trev:

Why, who's doing it and why?

Max:

Well, there's a linskey, the rationale is that the Ukrainian

Max:

regime is more and more being in that sense hated and seen in a negative

Max:

light by the population of the Ukraine, above all the working class.

Max:

I mean, if you look at the timing of Bogdan's arrest, it occurred at the

Max:

same time that Ukraine passed a bill, a mobilization bill, to effectively

Max:

increase the number of people that are forced into the front line of this war.

Max:

Uh, against Russia, uh, while statistics, uh, particularly from Ukraine are

Max:

never accurate and not really, doesn't, don't tell you the number of

Max:

dead, uh, there are by most accounts at least half a million Ukrainians

Max:

who have already died in this war.

Max:

Many, maybe your listeners have seen some of the images, uh, on, on Twitter

Max:

amongst social media of the barbarity of this war, uh, and this war, which

Max:

is really being led by Washington, uh, and, uh, and the European NATO powers.

Max:

Uh, is, is one, as we said at the beginning, for the carve up of Russia.

Max:

And so this mobilisation bill is being, was passed under conditions of forcing

Max:

more young people to the slaughter.

Max:

Uh, and at the same time, the program of perspective of our movement, of which

Max:

the Young Guard, uh, adhere to, the calling for the unity of the Ukrainian

Max:

and Russian working class against this war, Uh, is something that they are

Max:

deeply fearful we're gonna hear in.

Max:

The other aspect, and I'll just, I'll just be quick on this part

Max:

and maybe Oscar can jump in.

Max:

The other aspect is that nothing that the Zelensky regime

Max:

does, it does in isolation.

Max:

In the sense that it would have had to have had approval, really, in

Max:

the highest echelons of Washington.

Max:

Uh, for them to go ahead with this arrest, and one could add the German

Max:

ruling class and others in NATO.

Max:

Uh, and so, under these conditions, I mean, it's the same process,

Max:

really, that you're beginning to see in other countries.

Max:

In the United States You had the crackdown on the anti genocide

Max:

encampments across the universities that you see in the United States.

Max:

There's encampments that have been set up in opposition to the genocide in Gaza.

Max:

They've been under attack, including the moving of riot police against them.

Max:

Uh, such similar anti democratic attacks are taking apart, uh,

Max:

taking place internationally.

Max:

So it was part of, in that sense, a broader crackdown on basic democratic

Max:

rights, uh, and certainly would have had approval in the kind of,

Max:

as I said, the highest echelons.

Max:

And the main concern, the key concern of Zelensky and the ruling class is that the

Max:

program of perspective of our movement, that is, uh, for the unity of the working

Max:

class on a socialist basis, Uh, and for the overthrow of capitalism is winning

Max:

a hearing, uh, and will continue to do so amongst workers and young people.

Trev:

Is there any effective opposition in the Ukraine, or is, is a guy like

Trev:

Bogdan one of the, one of the sort of, um, few opposition potential

Trev:

leaders that people could gather around if they were wanting to avoid this

Trev:

mobilisation bill or wanting to complain?

Trev:

Is he, is he one of the few that might gather a crowd that could

Trev:

cause a problem for the government?

Trev:

Or?

Trev:

Is there any other effective

Max:

There are others who oppose what's happening in the Zelensky regime.

Max:

And in fact, there is an article on our website by, um, uh, Max, is it Goldarb,

Max:

who is part of, uh, I'm just trying to find the name of the group, maybe Oscar

Max:

can, uh, oh, here we are, the Union of Left Forces for a Socialist Party.

Max:

And this group, uh, Uh, you know, and, and in Maxim Goldar, sorry, uh, certainly

Max:

have, uh, warned against what's occurring in the country and have deep concerns

Max:

and their leaders and various others are being arrested by the, by the regime.

Max:

Um, and some, uh, as, uh, as Maxim went through in our mayday rally that

Max:

we held this year in 20, uh, in, uh, earlier May 5th, 2024, our time, uh,

Max:

which Bob Dunn was slated to speak at.

Max:

Uh, and prior to his arrest, made clear that there are those who have

Max:

been arrested and have perished in prison, um, you know, under this

Max:

kind of, uh, the regime of Zelensky and the attack on essentially all

Max:

left wing opposition, uh, to war.

Trev:

Yeah, I'm conscious Oscar hasn't had a chance to chip in.

Trev:

Away you go, Oscar.

Trev:

Feel free to talk about whatever you would like from what's the previous

Trev:

discussion or lead somewhere else.

Oscar:

Yeah, well, I think many of the main points have been made

Oscar:

by, uh, The point about, um, the transparent falsehoods in the

Oscar:

indictment of Bogdan is correct.

Oscar:

I mean, there's a very glaring contradiction there, um, in that

Oscar:

the indictment itself acknowledges that Bogdan is a socialist, he's an

Oscar:

internationalist, um, but then it claims that he's somehow an agent

Oscar:

of the, um, Capitalist Putin regime.

Oscar:

And that's a contradiction that they don't, uh, resolve or explain

Oscar:

and that they can't, which is characteristic of all frame ups.

Oscar:

I mean, just to emphasize, I think Max said, I mean, the young guard

Oscar:

of Bolshevik Leninists, um, does operate in Russia as well as Ukraine.

Oscar:

It opposes the Russian government, um, from the socialist left, and it

Oscar:

fights for the unity of Ukrainian and.

Oscar:

Russian, um, workers against their respective governments

Oscar:

and against this war.

Oscar:

I think just one point, you know, which may be striking, um, in terms of this

Oscar:

case is what it reveals about Ukraine.

Oscar:

I mean, for the past two years, um, we've been told, you know, by

Oscar:

governments, the media, That this is a plucky little democracy, um, fighting

Oscar:

for its sovereignty and the like.

Oscar:

Um, what this really reveals is that Ukraine is a police state.

Oscar:

And when we say that, uh, there's not a trace of exaggeration.

Oscar:

I mean, the entire country is under martial law.

Oscar:

The last election was held in 2019, but the deadline for the

Oscar:

next election has elapsed, so Zelensky is effectively a dictator.

Oscar:

All of the major opposition parties, including the largest opposition

Oscar:

party, was banned in 2022.

Oscar:

Um, so this is, you know, a fascistic regime and I think

Oscar:

that raises the question of, of what this war is really about.

Oscar:

And what we've been emphasizing is that this is not a regional

Oscar:

war in Eastern Europe.

Oscar:

Uh, it really is a proxy war between the us, us, and nato, um, and Russia, and

Oscar:

increasingly, uh, not just a proxy war.

Oscar:

I mean, we reported, we published a statement on the World Socialist website

Oscar:

today, raising the fact that the U.

Oscar:

S.

Oscar:

has now given approval, um, for American supplied weaponry to be used

Oscar:

by Ukraine against Russian territory.

Oscar:

That is, you'll have long range U.

Oscar:

S.

Oscar:

bombs striking targets within Russia.

Oscar:

The reason that the Biden administration hadn't done that previously is because.

Oscar:

Biden himself acknowledged this would lead to World War Three.

Oscar:

Uh, so we're raising that this is a very sharp issue in the defense of Bogdan,

Oscar:

uh, is a question, not just for the Ukrainian working class, it's integral to.

Oscar:

The fight against imperialist war, the fight to defend democracy,

Oscar:

uh, here and internationally.

Trev:

Some people might think that we're being a bit harsh on Ukraine.

Trev:

And I just, as we've been doing this podcast, dear listener, for

Trev:

nearly nine years now, And it just amazes me how good guys become bad

Trev:

guys, and bad guys become good guys.

Trev:

And this happens a lot with, um, China.

Trev:

We might talk about China later on if we get time, when we're really

Trev:

free rolling on different things.

Trev:

But, you know, at one point they were the good guys, in that, in that

Trev:

people like Tony Abbott organised a free trade agreement with them.

Trev:

And people like Julia Gillard, was organising joint military,

Trev:

um, exercises with China.

Trev:

And the Australian newspaper, you know, Murdoch, notoriously right

Trev:

wing, was criticising anybody who criticised those events.

Trev:

And now, of course, China's the big bogeyman and, um, you know, it's

Trev:

just Orwellian, the way that we were always fighting with East Asia, then

Trev:

we were always fighting with Eurasia, and it, it, it flips and changes.

Trev:

And just on the, um, on the Ukrainian one back in, um, 2021, it's just worthwhile

Trev:

remembering that, um, Maris Payne, um, she must have been Home Affairs or I'm

Trev:

not sure what minister she was at the time, but she cancelled the campaign.

Trev:

A former soldier's passport, because he was planning to fight with the

Trev:

notoriously neo Nazi Azov Battalion in the Ukraine, and, uh, this guy was

Trev:

intercepted by ASIO and unable to leave the country because it was considered

Trev:

it would be too dangerous for him to go and fight in the Ukraine and, uh, and

Trev:

come back with that sort of knowledge.

Trev:

So, our ASIO boss said at the time Our concern there is, um, that the Neo Nazi,

Trev:

he didn't use the word Neo Nazi, but his concern was that, of this soldier

Trev:

coming back to Australia battle hardened with skills and, um, and you know,

Trev:

people forget these sorts of changes in the perspectives that we've had of

Trev:

different, you know, where goodies become baddies and baddies become goodies.

Trev:

So, um, so yeah, if you think we've been a bit harsh on Ukraine.

Trev:

They've got some form according to the people who now support them the most.

Trev:

So you've got to work your way through all that.

Trev:

So over to you guys.

Trev:

What, what next would you like to, to sort of, well, have you ever, either

Trev:

of you ever met, um, either online, um, Bogdan, did you ever in your

Trev:

international meetings ever speak with him or deal with him at all?

Max:

Well, I haven't had the, uh, the, the privilege of meeting him in person,

Max:

but certainly he has, uh, Spoken, uh, at, uh, whilst he was unable to speak at this

Max:

May Day Rally due to his incarceration, he did speak at our May Day Rally in 2023.

Max:

Um, and that can still be, uh, found on the website, uh, his speech,

Max:

uh, and certainly you can still see some of his, his, his articles.

Max:

But, uh, you know, that's where I've heard him, uh, speak before.

Max:

And it was very powerful to have a socialist anti war voice from the Ukraine,

Max:

uh, under conditions in which Uh, as Oscar said, I mean, this war has been,

Max:

is, is touted by many as the good war, for lack of a better term, uh, in which,

Max:

you know, this is the freedom for, uh, you know, democratic Ukraine, uh, against

Max:

the, the big bad Putin government.

Max:

And as he outlined, not only does this have nothing to do with the

Max:

freedom of the Ukrainian people, it is entirely bound up with the war aims

Max:

of US imperialism and the NATO forces.

Max:

Part of their broader war plans to carve up Russia, and

Max:

ultimately their goal is China.

Max:

And I think the statement that was published today on the World Socialist

Max:

website, which is really warning of these dangers, that this is, you

Max:

know, one of the real dangers that's occurring is that workers and young

Max:

people aren't in fact aware of, uh, the, uh, the, what NATO is preparing

Max:

to unleash on the world's population.

Max:

The fact, as Oscar said, that Biden in the past said that, you know, the utilization

Max:

of US missiles, long range missiles.

Max:

from Ukraine into Russia would be World War Three.

Max:

The fact that that's been approved means that the calculations in US ruling circles

Max:

is that such a war, such a, you know, World War Three, so to speak, is, is, uh,

Max:

is something that's completely acceptable.

Max:

And it's premised on the completely reckless idea that Putin And the

Max:

oligarchs won't retaliate or draw their own conclusions to utilize, uh, you

Max:

know, tactical nuclear weapons, uh, as a way of, uh, again, to try and prevent,

Max:

uh, the dismemberment from occurring.

Max:

But really, when you look at it, and one of the points our statement makes,

Max:

because it doesn't hold muster, this conception that Putin won't retaliate,

Max:

Really, the calculations must be being made by the, by the ruling elite in the U.

Max:

S.

Max:

As they've done virtually with every war throughout its entire

Max:

existence is a, is a casus bellae for full scale war with Russia.

Max:

Propped, you know, uh, prod Putin into retaliating again,

Max:

and so they can escalate the war.

Trev:

I think the only calculation is how many bombs can they sell,

Trev:

the military conflicts, isn't it?

Trev:

That's, that's the main calculation.

Max:

Certainly, look, there's no question that capital is the interest, but they

Max:

do, in that sense, it's not simply just weapons, but also geostrategic

Max:

interests, spheres of influence, and ultimately, they see all these

Max:

great strategic resources in Russia.

Max:

You know, uh, which does have, it's a vast landmass with huge amounts of raw

Max:

material, including raw material that can be utilized for, um, for computer chips

Max:

that today are absolutely vital, uh, for virtually everything within society.

Max:

Uh, and they see that as, you know, something that they can carve up and, uh,

Max:

and, uh, and control, but ultimately is a stepping stone to their broader war drive.

Max:

Uh, against China, which they see as their chief economic rival.

Trev:

Yep.

Trev:

So if Bogdan was, uh, against what the, um, Zelensky government was

Trev:

doing, and he was also against the, the Putin regime and its invasion,

Trev:

what, what do you guys say Putin should have done if, if not what he did?

Trev:

Like, should he have just sat on the sidelines and let everything happen?

Trev:

Hmm.

Oscar:

Yeah, I can make a couple of points about that.

Oscar:

I mean, we're not in the business of giving advice to

Oscar:

Putin or any other capitalist.

Oscar:

And I think one of the points we've really sought to emphasise in

Oscar:

analysing this war and its development is the necessity of placing it

Oscar:

in a broader historical context.

Oscar:

I mean, one aspect of the media sort of propaganda is that this

Oscar:

all began on in February 2022.

Oscar:

Putin invaded out of the blue.

Oscar:

It was completely unprovoked.

Oscar:

Uh, and the like.

Oscar:

That, that's false.

Oscar:

I mean, this is a development that goes back decades, and a key turning

Oscar:

point was, uh, the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Oscar:

Uh, that was the final betrayal of Stalinism, uh, the Stalinist bureaucrats.

Oscar:

Ended nationalized property, ended the social gains that remained, and they

Oscar:

transformed themselves into oligarchs.

Oscar:

Recall, you know, at the time this was presented as a path to peace, prosperity,

Oscar:

democracy, and everything else.

Oscar:

The complete opposite occurred in Eastern Europe, uh, throughout the former Soviet

Oscar:

Union, you know, a social catastrophe for the masses, the emergence of, you

Oscar:

know, kleptocratic regimes, oligarchies.

Oscar:

And also the promotion of national divisions.

Oscar:

But the other thing that occurred was that you had, um, a discussion within U.

Oscar:

S.

Oscar:

strategic circles that this was now a unipolar moment, uh, and we know

Oscar:

what followed really, you know, 30 years of, Unending wars, uh, initially

Oscar:

targeting places such as the Middle East, Afghanistan, um, and the like, but I

Oscar:

think what's really emerged, you know, if you tried to date it maybe over the past

Oscar:

15 years or so, um, is the development of those regional conflicts, um, into

Oscar:

a much broader conflagration and the U.

Oscar:

S.

Oscar:

Um, and it's become very explicit.

Oscar:

I think 2019, the Pentagon said terrorism is not the issue anymore.

Oscar:

It's great power conflict.

Oscar:

And our chief rivals are Russia and China.

Oscar:

So they have a whole perspective that underlies, uh, their actions,

Oscar:

which is, as Max said, to dominate the Eurasian landmass, um, to

Oscar:

prevent the emergence of any rival.

Oscar:

And that's a program, which means nuclear.

Oscar:

The Putin regime, uh, has no progressive response to that because it does

Oscar:

represent a capitalist oligarchy to the extent that it advances, um, any policy.

Oscar:

On the one hand, it's sort of pleading for imperialism to

Oscar:

come to the table to do a deal.

Oscar:

On the other, it's sabre rattling and the promotion of retrograde.

Oscar:

Russian Nationalism.

Oscar:

So that's one of the, you know, really central points that the YGBL and

Oscar:

comrades like Bogdan have been raising.

Oscar:

I mean, there's no solution within the national framework.

Oscar:

There's no solution orienting to any of these regimes.

Oscar:

I mean, the question is Returning to the perspective that animated the 1917

Oscar:

October Russian Revolution, uniting workers throughout the region to take

Oscar:

political power, end capitalism, and begin the socialist reorganization of society.

Oscar:

Because as That was the case then.

Oscar:

I mean, the alternative is, uh, Massive War.

Trev:

Yeah, I mean, I'm just gonna push back a little bit, um, because

Trev:

you say you're not in the business of telling Putin what he can and

Trev:

can't do, but you guys are in the business of criticising what he did.

Trev:

And one argument that you read is that, um, you know, with the, with the

Trev:

collapse of the Soviet Union, that, um, you know, bringing Ukraine into NATO

Trev:

was acknowledged by dozens of really well respected, um, Western analysts

Trev:

from Henry Kissinger down, including US ambassadors and various political

Trev:

scientists and advisors, really, really well qualified people who said, That

Trev:

would be a crazy thing for the West to do, would be to have the Ukraine in NATO.

Trev:

You need to have a neutral territory separating NATO and Russia and, and

Trev:

they will understandably see this as a red line, just as America would

Trev:

if China put missiles in Mexico.

Trev:

Or as America did when Russia was proposing to put missiles in Cuba.

Trev:

So, with the idea that, okay, you may hate the way that the Russian

Trev:

society is organized and Putin is in control and what he does, but you

Trev:

still might take the view, well, okay, I don't like that regime, but for

Trev:

the sake of world peace, we need a neutral zone between NATO and Russia.

Trev:

And I still ask the question.

Trev:

If you criticise and say Putin shouldn't have done it, what should have happened?

Trev:

And to say that the workers should have risen up and conducted

Trev:

a revolt just isn't possible.

Trev:

So I just, I just wonder what should have happened.

Trev:

I know you might say there's no solution, which would be fine, but it's, yeah.

Oscar:

Yeah.

Oscar:

And look, I mean, perhaps I should have said, I mean, the other element of, you

Oscar:

know, the past 15 years is But really, you know, the past 30 years since the

Oscar:

dissolution of the Soviet Union is the relentless eastward expansion of NATO.

Oscar:

Of course, in Ukraine, there was a coup in 2014, um, financed by the US,

Oscar:

Germany involving fascistic forces.

Oscar:

They ousted a democratically elected, uh, government that had oriented to Russia.

Oscar:

So yeah, I mean, this is a war that's been instigated by NATO.

Oscar:

They bear primary.

Oscar:

responsibility.

Oscar:

Um, but in that sense, Putin fell into their trap and his whole conception,

Oscar:

which has now been made public, was that you'd have a short special

Oscar:

military operation, invasion, and that would compel, uh, Ukraine and

Oscar:

the US to the negotiating table.

Oscar:

Russia could achieve, um, concessions and the like.

Oscar:

None of that's occurred because the program of American imperialism is full.

Oscar:

Ultimately, the complete subjugation of Russia, regime

Oscar:

change in Moscow, and the like.

Oscar:

I mean, the point about Putin's response is, I mean, this is a

Oscar:

war that has claimed untold lives.

Oscar:

Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives on the Russian

Oscar:

and Ukrainian sides alike.

Oscar:

NATO, again, bears primary responsibility, but Putin also shares.

Oscar:

Um, his responsibility for that and the whole perspective now of,

Oscar:

you know, the Russian government.

Oscar:

Um, what do they do?

Oscar:

I mean, if they respond to The US provocations with military means, as

Oscar:

is, you know, highly likely you're talking about a nuclear world war.

Oscar:

Um, so we certainly think, you know, the perspective of the

Oscar:

working class taking power is, is realistic because it's necessary.

Oscar:

Uh, the alternative is, You know, catastrophe on a global scale,

Oscar:

uh, which would make the horrors of II pale into insignificance.

Oscar:

And I think, you know, what we're really trying to emphasize is that

Oscar:

these are not just government policies.

Oscar:

I mean, they do stem from a global capitalist system that's in a profound

Oscar:

crisis, deepest crisis since the 1930s.

Oscar:

Uh, and governments really see no way out, uh, except through

Oscar:

a program of, of war abroad.

Oscar:

We know where that leads, um, the alternative has to be, uh,

Oscar:

Developed, fought for, you know, an independent movement of the

Oscar:

working class and we raised it.

Oscar:

That means building our party on a global scale.

Trev:

You know, the sort of, uh, the sort of workers revolution that you guys

Trev:

are hopeful for and working towards, um, the chances of that has increased

Trev:

a little bit in recent times I think.

Trev:

Because of the tragedy in Gaza.

Trev:

And I'm happy to sort of bring that topic in at this moment, because I think that

Trev:

tragedy is so obvious to people and they can look at it and, and recognize that

Trev:

there are the good guys in the West.

Trev:

Who are conducting this, this terrible catastrophe, and they are

Trev:

using weasel words and all sorts of propaganda to try and justify it.

Trev:

And I think that's enough for people to suddenly go, Hang on

Trev:

a minute, are we the baddies?

Trev:

Is the system wrong?

Trev:

And, and, maybe with Ukraine before they weren't really sure, were there

Trev:

really Nazis in the Ukrainian system?

Trev:

Putin's evil of course, probably the West is still in the right, blah blah blah.

Trev:

But something like Gaza has, I think, led to a situation where a

Trev:

lot of people have really started to question what they've been told.

Trev:

And once, once the sort of, the curtain is lifted and, and it's revealed to

Trev:

people the truth of of what's going on in Western, sort of, deception.

Trev:

Then, suddenly, all sorts of things will become open to people's eyes, and

Trev:

they'll see it everywhere, if you like.

Trev:

They'll see it in Ukraine, and they'll see it in China, and

Trev:

they'll see it in in other areas.

Trev:

So I think as tragic as Gaza is, I think it is an event that is so plain

Trev:

and clear to people that your chances of communicating what is going on,

Trev:

um, might've increased a little bit.

Max:

I think that's, uh, that's correct, Trevor.

Max:

I mean, the genocide in Gaza has had a profound impact on the

Max:

consciousness of millions of workers and young people around the world.

Max:

You've seen, uh, I mean, protests that have erupted at numbers that, you know,

Max:

haven't existed in decades and decades and decades, and even in some ways pale

Max:

in comparison to, uh, anti war movements of the past, including even, uh, the

Max:

question of Vietnam, but certainly it pales, you know, the kind of opposition

Max:

to the Iraq War was a single day, you had millions on the street, but in,

Max:

in this case, you have millions out.

Max:

around the world and sustained anti war protests every week.

Max:

I mean, it is significant that in this country in particular, uh, you've got, uh,

Max:

weekly protests, uh, that have occurred certainly in Melbourne and Sydney, but

Max:

generally, uh, you know, in one form or another across the entire country.

Max:

But that process isn't automatic.

Max:

Uh, I think the Gaza genocide, uh, as being seen as part of.

Max:

The global drive to war by the United States, including the ongoing war

Max:

in the Ukraine, is not something that is immediately apparent.

Max:

And part of the reason that that isn't immediately apparent is that the very

Max:

organisers of the protests, those, uh, around the, uh, above all what

Max:

we call pseudo left, you know, fake socialists, uh, those who espouse

Max:

occasionally, although less and less now, socialist rhetoric, those Whilst, uh,

Max:

you know, ultimately their orientation is towards the upper middle class.

Max:

I mean, at the protest they do not mention larger war.

Max:

Uh, the larger question of the drive to war, ultimately because they

Max:

support the war, uh, in Ukraine against Putin, their position is, uh.

Max:

Uh, so is in, in that sense, in, in the opposite of that of Bogdan and the YGBL.

Trev:

So are you saying that the anti war protest regarding Gaza and Ukraine,

Trev:

there's virtually no mention of the U.

Trev:

S.

Trev:

driving these events?

Trev:

Is that what you're saying?

Max:

While certainly the United States may be mentioned, although one has

Max:

to say that the limitations of the protests as they continue in terms of

Max:

the speeches, the actual broader context is in fact reduced further and further.

Max:

Um, I mean, look, we, uh, we do, uh, go out to the protests and

Max:

speak to those who are there.

Max:

There's no question.

Max:

I mean, there's many, you know, we're not saying that those who attend the

Max:

protests are the same as those who lead it, but those that lead it, their

Max:

positions that they put forward are.

Max:

Very much appealing to the very governments who are responsible for

Max:

these crimes, which is a dead end.

Max:

That, that, that doesn't work.

Max:

I mean, six months, over six months have proved that.

Max:

What is required is a new political perspective, that of a socialist

Max:

perspective, above all, a turn to the working class, uh, which is

Max:

the social force within society that can bring an end to this war.

Max:

I mean, you have, as an example, uh, just as one example, I mean, the

Max:

massive Uh, you've heard of, uh, maybe it's discussed here, the Zim shipping

Max:

line, which is a large international shipping line of Israel, uh, which

Max:

essentially once the, uh, the genocide began, gave over all their resources.

Max:

Uh, to, uh, to Israel, uh, and they've been, uh, loading and unloading in

Max:

Australian docks since the war began.

Max:

Uh, and the Maritime Union of Australia have allowed and have not called a

Max:

single, not has, no one has any union.

Max:

The union bureaucracy has not called a single political strike.

Max:

That is despite there being mass opposition amongst the working class.

Max:

In other words, the unions, which operate in close collaboration with

Max:

the pseudo left, who, who put all, uh, backing behind the union and the union

Max:

bureaucracy, uh, uh, stifling, are in fact, uh, turning away workers from

Max:

this, uh, revolutionary perspective.

Max:

So look, I don't disagree that the question is that these developments

Max:

are having a profound impact on consciousness, but that process

Max:

isn't automatic and does require.

Max:

Above all, the intervention of a revolutionary party, and that is what is

Max:

so worrying to Zelensky and Washington and the ruling class internationally,

Max:

and is why Bogdan has to be arrested, or at least in their view, was arrested and

Max:

to be charged, because that perspective cuts right across their interests.

Trev:

So, um, why aren't these unions being politically active

Trev:

in the way that they used to be?

Trev:

So, for example, in the lead up to the Second World War, I think we

Trev:

were exporting pig iron to Japan and tensions were high and, and the union

Trev:

movement said, what are we doing?

Trev:

We're sending this iron, pig iron to, to what looks like a future

Trev:

enemy who's going to make bombs and, and drop them on our boys.

Trev:

And, uh, Bob Menzies got the nickname Pig Iron Bob and it was pressure

Trev:

from the union movement that stopped.

Trev:

The export of pig iron.

Trev:

So what's changed?

Trev:

Why aren't, why aren't union leaders as politically motivated?

Trev:

And for that matter, our current Labor government, who seems

Trev:

to be, I had low expectations, but boy, it's been pretty bad.

Trev:

They're closer to the Liberal party than any other party.

Trev:

Um, why is it that the Labor party broadly and then the union movement

Trev:

seems So right wing on these issues.

Oscar:

I think in terms of the union leaderships, I mean, they've always

Oscar:

supported, um, their own governments in periods of imperialist war, including,

Oscar:

you know, as we were just referencing in the second world war, I mean, they

Oscar:

presented this as a war for democracy against Japan, which was a fraud.

Oscar:

It was a war for dominance in the Pacific, which was ultimately established by.

Oscar:

American imperialism played a similar role in World War I.

Oscar:

But I think.

Oscar:

Even compared with those periods, um, there's been a qualitative

Oscar:

degeneration of the trade unions.

Oscar:

I mean, these are thoroughly corporatized entities today and

Oscar:

their foreign policy is very much bound up with their domestic policy.

Oscar:

I mean, if you look at what the ACT, you and the union movement

Oscar:

have done over the past 40 decades.

Oscar:

It's been ensured that there are no strikes, no action by workers,

Oscar:

as masses of jobs are being cut.

Oscar:

Um, wages have been cut in every single enterprise agreement, um, over

Oscar:

recent years, along with conditions.

Oscar:

Um, and that's why, you know, there's an immense social crisis, um, today.

Oscar:

In terms of.

Oscar:

The Genocide.

Oscar:

I mean, that, that complicity in this, including, as Max said, by facilitating,

Oscar:

enabling the handling of Israeli goods by the Zim shipping line, which did dedicate

Oscar:

its entire fleet to the war effort, Israeli war effort in October, but that's

Oscar:

because these are pro imperialist, this is a pro imperialist bureaucracy, um,

Oscar:

allied with the Labor government and it supports, um, The war that we've been

Oscar:

discussing against Russia in Ukraine.

Oscar:

I think in terms of why, um, Labor is supporting the genocide,

Oscar:

it's connected to the point that Max was raising, um, before.

Oscar:

I mean, the dominant line that's put forward, uh, by the protest organisers,

Oscar:

by various groups that we describe as the pseudo left, Is that the genocide

Oscar:

is sort of an isolated episode, um, and that the way that it can be ended

Oscar:

is through moral appeals and placing pressure on governments, including the

Oscar:

Labor government, to change course.

Oscar:

But what we've been trying to emphasize is that the genocide is one

Oscar:

component of this developing world war.

Oscar:

It's not disconnected from it.

Oscar:

The US is carrying out, um, against Russia, against China, and it, it,

Oscar:

that's a very direct, um, connection.

Oscar:

I mean, we've seen over recent months, um, you know, Israeli attacks on

Oscar:

Iranian territory, um, US strikes on Iranian aligned Houthi forces in Yemen.

Oscar:

Uh, the genocide is becoming one aspect of a broader conflagration.

Oscar:

Uh, throughout the Middle East aimed at securing U.

Oscar:

S.

Oscar:

and allied interests.

Oscar:

And Australia, Australian imperialism in the form of the Labor government

Oscar:

is completely committed to this.

Oscar:

One sort of central aspect of that is that Labor is presiding over very dramatic

Oscar:

militarization of the country here.

Oscar:

Um, explicitly in preparation for conflict in the Indo Pacific,

Oscar:

that is for war with China.

Oscar:

Um, so, you know, what we're trying to draw out is that

Oscar:

these developments are linked.

Oscar:

Um, and, you know, governments that will support genocide, which is what

Oscar:

we're seeing in Gaza, will not stop short of using nuclear weapons, carrying

Oscar:

out other horrors to advance their Geostrategic interests under conditions

Oscar:

of this crisis of world capitalism.

Trev:

You guys are keen on organizing the workers and I intuitively think of

Trev:

the union movement as being critical to organizing workers, but We're coming to

Trev:

a conclusion that the union movement's pretty broken and isn't going to do it.

Trev:

So, are there other examples around the world of, what are the examples where

Trev:

workers are able to organise without the union movement being heavily involved?

Max:

Well, what we call, sorry Oscar you go, I'll go after you.

Max:

Sorry, I'll go and then you can speak, Oscar.

Max:

Look, we fight for the formation of rank and file committees of workers.

Max:

Um, we've called for this formation, particularly coming out of, uh,

Max:

the COVID 19 pandemic, in which, you know, this virus was allowed to

Max:

spread, uh, across the world, uh, without, uh, the, any of the necessary

Max:

safety measures to prevent it.

Max:

Uh, I mean, it was something that in massive, uh, areas and factories,

Max:

particularly in the United States, but across the world, uh, workers were forced

Max:

into work under conditions in which they would get infected and most likely

Max:

die or have lifelong health conditions.

Max:

Uh, we called for the necessity of the formation of rank and file committees,

Max:

this is not, this is something entirely within the tradition of the Trotskyist

Max:

movement, uh, to break with the union bureaucracy, uh, and establish, uh,

Max:

their own organisations of struggle.

Max:

for listening.

Max:

Uh, now these rank and file committees, uh, have begun to be established in,

Max:

uh, in countries around the world, uh, including in the United States, uh, in

Max:

Sri Lanka, uh, and even in this country.

Trev:

Would people think of them as unions?

Trev:

I mean, you're calling them committees, but are they kind of just like a rival

Trev:

union, um, in, In style and function, are they that different to a union?

Trev:

Would one of these committees be that different?

Trev:

If it's sort of a I gather it's based around where people work and gatherings

Trev:

from factories or, you know, um, Amazon workplaces or something like that.

Trev:

What's the difference between one of these committees and a union?

Max:

Well, I think one has to be very clear of how a union operates.

Max:

The unions now operate in a bureaucracy as essentially, uh, the industrial

Max:

policemen of the working class.

Max:

I mean, there is no democracy, uh, really in unions, uh, I mean, we've experienced

Max:

that when our rank and file committees, uh, attempt to put forward any resolution,

Max:

uh, any positions that in that sense doesn't line up with the, uh, position of

Max:

the union bureaucracy, which is sellouts.

Max:

Which is the bringing in of attacks on working conditions.

Max:

And whenever that's put forward, uh, our rank and file members are shouted down,

Max:

uh, various anti democratic measures are, uh, uh, used to silence them.

Max:

So they operate not in that sense in any way as democratic organizations

Max:

or truly organizations of workers.

Max:

And in fact, in the large part, workers aren't members of the unions anymore.

Max:

There has been a vast shift.

Max:

in the amount of, uh, people actually, and workers as part of unions, young

Max:

people in particular, uh, don't join them.

Max:

They correctly see that they do nothing, uh, for their conditions.

Max:

Uh, they, they see them as, uh, you know, generally as organizations

Max:

that will take fees but, uh, will in fact not improve anyone's conditions.

Max:

And if you look at the most union, highly unionized areas, uh, We've had some of

Max:

the most difficult cases in the country.

Max:

Particularly, for example, the nurses and healthcare workers, but in

Max:

particular nurses, they've had their conditions deteriorate some of the most

Max:

sharpest of all workers in the country.

Max:

I mean, we just had an experience in Western Australia, you know, in

Max:

which you had Western Australian, the Australian Nurses and Midwives Federation.

Max:

We're attempting to ram through another rotten deal under conditions

Max:

in which nurses have had essentially a pay freeze for years and years

Max:

and years, in which they're experiencing massive staff shortages.

Max:

They refused to distribute the material, distribute what this deal

Max:

is that they negotiated with the government behind closed doors.

Max:

They were quite easy to hand out pickets and shirts to the nurses,

Max:

but never the actual agreement.

Max:

And then presented in a series of slides.

Max:

Don't actually touch on the most fundamental things,

Max:

which is conditions and pay.

Max:

Slowly the slides go further and, and, and workers are beginning to question,

Max:

well, what's happening for our conditions?

Max:

And by the end, the deals that are, uh, that are offered are paltry.

Max:

Uh, below inflation ultimately, and they're going to do nothing

Max:

to improve their conditions.

Max:

There was mass hostility.

Max:

Have you seen, have you seen,

Trev:

um, in the UK with the railway union over there, Mick Lynch, and,

Trev:

and have you observed any of, of that union's activities at all?

Max:

Oh, look, it doesn't quite come to mind.

Max:

Maybe Oscar knows more than I do.

Oscar:

Yeah.

Oscar:

I mean, they've carried out limited industrial action.

Oscar:

Understanding is that that was wound up and again, you know, like push through

Oscar:

Deals that are concessionary in nature.

Oscar:

And if you look at the British Union leadership, um, including Lynch, who

Oscar:

sort of postures as a left, I mean, their whole line now is that you're going to

Oscar:

have to support, uh, Keir Starmer in the forthcoming British general election

Oscar:

under conditions where he's, um, You know, indistinguishable from a Tory, he says one

Oscar:

of his great idols is Margaret Thatcher.

Oscar:

If he was required to, he'd, you know, use nuclear weapons.

Oscar:

Um, so yeah, I would not, um, put him forward.

Trev:

Okay, I thought he might have made the cut as somebody who was, you know,

Trev:

Uh, an okay union leader, but, but, but not, my understanding is, for example,

Trev:

in Australia with um, the Shoppies Union, Shopkeepers and Distributed

Trev:

Allies Union, is one of the more powerful unions because of the numbers.

Trev:

There's obviously a lot of workers employed in Coles and Woolworths,

Trev:

et cetera, and that particular union is quite right wing.

Trev:

And it then has an inordinate amount of power in factional

Trev:

deals in the Labor Party.

Trev:

And, and wields a very pro right wing, very pro, uh,

Trev:

religious Christian line as well.

Trev:

Um, and the, the, like Coles and Woolworths want that union

Trev:

in place because it doesn't really fight for the employees.

Trev:

So it makes it easier for them to stay in power and, I don't know, um,

Trev:

and, and it seems to me that that's then led to a very strong right

Trev:

wing faction in the Labour Party.

Trev:

And someone like Richard Miles, our Defence Minister, is, is well and

Trev:

truly part of that and has been, um, subjected to so much American propaganda

Trev:

that, um, you know, he may as well be an American politician, I think.

Trev:

And, um, and, and just the good left elements of the Labor Party just

Trev:

don't have the numbers against that.

Trev:

So, that's the sort of picture I've come to understand of, of the

Trev:

Australian Labor Movement anyway.

Trev:

But, um, um, sorry I interrupted you before, Max, but, um, I don't know.

Trev:

Workers committees sound a lot like unions without the current union

Trev:

leaders and just trying to start afresh.

Max:

No, it's a very different perspective as well.

Max:

I mean, we will fight to come to the head of the rank and file committees

Max:

and put forward the perspective.

Max:

I mean, we tell workers the truth.

Max:

What they're up against is not just simply a bad boss, bad

Max:

manager, bad CEO, or what have you.

Max:

But not only the company itself, but in that sense, the entire capitalist system.

Max:

I think the other point that it's interesting what you raise, I mean,

Max:

The Labor Party is nominally run by the Labor Left at the moment.

Max:

I mean, that's, you know, it's, it's, it's very nominal though.

Max:

I think, I think Albanese is, is tied.

Max:

But what I'm saying is that, you know, and, and if you want to know the death

Max:

of, or the, the final nail in the coffin of any, anything Labor Left is Jerry

Max:

Hand in 1991, when he, you know, on the floor of the Australian Parliament

Max:

proposed the, uh, mandatory detention.

Max:

That was the Labor Left's, uh, you know, their great contribution in 1991.

Max:

But Look, Albanese, uh, and, uh, Wong and the whole lot of them, I

Max:

mean, look, I think the key point to make, just to re emphasise what Oscar

Max:

said, I mean, it's not an aberration that they support the genocide.

Max:

In fact, Labor has supported, uh, Israel, uh, since its inception in 1948.

Max:

Uh, it's always been the party of Australian imperialism, and in war, that's

Max:

the party that's turned to, in the ruling elite during World War I and World War ii.

Max:

Under conditions of mass opposition, they're brought into dampen down, uh, to

Max:

turn away, you know, to, uh, to stop the developing movement of the working class.

Max:

I mean, they're not a, a party in that sense of the left or.

Max:

For workers, they're a party, as I said, of the ruling elite in

Max:

Australian imperialism and have been, uh, you know, for its entire history.

Trev:

So the future is workers committees, is that, is that, is

Trev:

that the way out of this mess?

Trev:

Is that what you're saying?

Max:

The future, yeah, I'll go ahead.

Max:

To

Trev:

organise, to organise the workers movement is workers committees.

Oscar:

Yeah, it's certainly one aspect of it.

Oscar:

I mean, what we find, and we do conduct political work, Um, in the working class.

Oscar:

Um, there's huge anger about the cost of living crisis, the social crisis.

Oscar:

As you said, there's opposition to war.

Oscar:

The issue is that FIOP finds no outlet.

Oscar:

Um, it's suppressed, including by the trade unions, um, and their leaderships.

Oscar:

So the question is the working class taking matters into its own hands and the

Oscar:

formation of rank and file committees.

Oscar:

is one means for that to be done.

Oscar:

We conceive of these as democratic bodies run by workers themselves, not

Oscar:

bureaucrats on six figure salaries.

Oscar:

And their aim would be to, um, unite workers across industries,

Oscar:

between different industries, um, and to prosecute both an

Oscar:

industrial and a political struggle.

Oscar:

Uh, for improved wages, conditions, um, and the like.

Oscar:

And what we raise is that such a movement of the working class, uh,

Oscar:

inevitably confronts Major political issues, uh, including the issues that

Oscar:

we've been discussing this evening.

Oscar:

Um, there's not a brick wall between, you know, the moves towards World War

Oscar:

III, um, and the struggles of workers for wages, conditions, and the like.

Oscar:

In fact, the question of who's going to pay for war, I mean, it is Ordinary

Oscar:

people, workers, um, I mean, you know, you talk about 368 billion dollars

Oscar:

committed to nuclear powered submarines.

Oscar:

Um, where's that money gonna come from?

Oscar:

We know it's from Education, healthcare, intensified

Oscar:

exploitation, uh, in the workplace.

Oscar:

So certainly we fight for rank and file committees as a means

Oscar:

through which workers can advance their independent class interests.

Oscar:

But above all, we're raising the need for a new political

Oscar:

perspective, a socialist perspective.

Oscar:

Um, which unites workers internationally against the capitalist system itself.

Trev:

If, if workers are going to fight for what's in their

Trev:

best interests, they have to know what's in their best interests.

Trev:

And sometimes that can be, if not counterintuitive, at least counter to

Trev:

the propaganda that they would have been subjected to for their entire lives.

Trev:

So, I fear you could have, a fully democratic workers committee and people

Trev:

voting for things that would actually be counterproductive because they, they don't

Trev:

know what's the best solutions because they haven't, um, understood these things.

Trev:

Like, I think, you know, people, Workers in the Rust Belt voted for

Trev:

Donald Trump, thinking that he was going to fix things for them when it

Trev:

was the last person who was going to.

Trev:

So, um, how do you overcome knowledge deficits and understanding

Trev:

of, of how, how things work?

Trev:

Because you guys are clearly anti capitalist, but most people would be so

Trev:

indoctrinated to think that capitalism is the only possibility And, you know,

Trev:

I think, oh, well the opposite of what you're talking about is some sort of

Trev:

Soviet style goss plan where everything's regimented and we don't want that.

Trev:

So, how, how do you go about educating and informing people

Trev:

about what might be in their best interests and how to figure it out?

Trev:

Because most people are really busy.

Trev:

They don't have time.

Trev:

Like, sort of what this podcast does, is for busy people, give them an hour

Trev:

and a half each week, where they can catch up on what they should know,

Trev:

and when they're sitting around, um, and somebody speaks bullshit, they

Trev:

can say, No, no, no, I heard it on the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove, that's

Trev:

not how it works, it works like this.

Trev:

But, you know, I just find an enormous amount of ignorance out there as to,

Trev:

people will still believe in trickle down economics, they'll still go the

Trev:

rising tide lifts all boats, they'll still, you know, come out with this

Trev:

shit, so, they'll say there's too much regulation by the government, um, a

Trev:

whole range of things, so how do you overcome all that, or do we just wait

Trev:

for Rupert Murdoch to finally die, and then That's when we get our chance.

Trev:

The

Max:

very process of the breakdown of capitalism is, as we actually were

Max:

discussing earlier on the question of the genocide, is transforming

Max:

consciousness on a mass scale.

Max:

The process through that transformation will take different forms.

Max:

You know, one can't exactly predict how the breakdown will

Max:

occur, but it is occurring.

Max:

Many statistics, whenever polls are done on the question of

Max:

capitalism, particularly young people are in opposition to it.

Max:

I mean, they, they oppose the system that they're in.

Max:

They don't see it as having any future.

Max:

The problem is, as is always the case, is that consciousness lags

Max:

behind objective developments.

Max:

You know, there isn't, as we were discussing before, awareness,

Max:

really, of the danger of nuclear war not being something in the distant

Max:

future, but potentially coming very, very rapidly as a result of the role

Max:

of US imperialism and its war aims across the entire Eurasian landmass.

Max:

How has that overcome?

Max:

Well, you know, we fight for, firstly, the building of our party,

Max:

the Socialist Equality Party.

Max:

I mean, we are fighting to build a vanguard party of revolutionary

Max:

workers, uh, who seek to, uh, bring forward this program and

Max:

perspective into the working class.

Max:

The rank and file committees is one form.

Max:

The IYSSE, which is our youth arm, is another form.

Max:

We're currently in the, in the fight for, uh, 1500 electoral members.

Max:

Uh, which is a requirement, uh, to be put back on the ballot paper.

Max:

We were deregistered as a political party in late 2021, as were a whole layer of

Max:

other smaller parties, as a result of anti democratic laws that were ran through,

Max:

uh, Parliament by, uh, the Liberal Party or Coalition in close collaboration

Max:

with Labor, and without really a boo from the Greens, one has to say.

Max:

And so now we have a situation in which there's been a whole You

Max:

know, a slew of smaller parties that have been deregistered.

Max:

We're fighting for our re registration and we encourage, you know, any of your

Max:

listeners who are interested in what we're saying to consider joining, um,

Max:

and certainly to join our campaign.

Max:

Tell them where to

Trev:

go, Max, give them the website name so they can go and sign up.

Trev:

So it's

Max:

the wsws.

Max:

org, uh, uh, is, uh, is our website, uh, to get to join

Max:

as a, as an electoral member.

Max:

You can go to sep.

Max:

org.

Max:

au slash emjoin.

Max:

I don't know if I can put it in the chat at some stage, might help, I

Max:

don't know, but I could do that.

Max:

I'll put a link.

Trev:

I'll put a link in the show notes, dear listener.

Max:

Yeah, and I really encourage your listeners as well to go

Max:

onto our page on Bogdan, and the best way to do that is wsws.

Max:

org slash free Bogdan.

Max:

That's where you can find all the information about what we've been

Max:

dealing with, but we use every means, Trevor, at our disposal to educate

Max:

the working class through the World Socialist website, through, you

Max:

know, trying to stand in elections.

Max:

I'm sure you do.

Trev:

Believe me, I know how hard it is to break through.

Trev:

That's, that's That's, uh, that's my point, I guess, is it's difficult

Trev:

to point, to break through, so, um,

Max:

See, the process, see, the process of the breakdown of capitalism

Max:

moves people very, very rapidly.

Max:

I think that's why I find, you know, we, we haven't spoken in two years.

Max:

What has happened in those two years?

Max:

As we had the massive disintegration of social and living conditions of

Max:

workers, inflation through the roof, people can't live really, uh, you know,

Max:

anymore, and so they will begin to But what is critical is obviously the

Max:

building of our movement in anticipation of mass revolutionary struggles.

Max:

Workers will enter into revolutionary struggle with or without the

Max:

Socialist Equality Party in existence.

Max:

That's capitalism will create those conditions, but for that revolutionary

Max:

struggle not to be either Fizzle out or more importantly the counter revolution

Max:

to come in and smash it up You need a Bolshevik style revolutionary party

Max:

that will lead the working class To to power and that's what we fight to build.

Max:

Right.

Trev:

Yep.

Trev:

I don't know guys.

Trev:

I mean that's taken us an hour Do you want anything else that you wanted to get

Trev:

off your chest in particular, or, um, I'm happy to wrap it up and I'm happy to sort

Trev:

of keep going, it's entirely up to you.

Trev:

Were there other issues to do with, you know, what's your view on China?

Trev:

I mean, um, In terms of, we're talking about how do we organise societies here,

Trev:

and you'd have to say that the, the amazing effort that's been done to pull

Trev:

so many people out of poverty as in such a short period of time has been quite

Trev:

astounding, but no doubt it's not perfect.

Trev:

So what's the, Socialist Equality Party view of, of China and, um,

Trev:

the Chinese Communist Party and how that society's organized.

Trev:

Good bits and bad bits.

Trev:

I'm curious.

Max:

Do you want to start us off, Oscar?

Max:

You still there?

Trev:

John, it might be on.

Trev:

Yeah, now we can hear.

Trev:

So go, go ahead.

Oscar:

Yeah.

Oscar:

I mean, I think it's a complex question.

Oscar:

I mean, just one aspect on what you raised previously.

Oscar:

I think it's Max was saying, I mean.

Oscar:

Workers are propelled into struggle by the conditions that

Oscar:

they confront under capitalism.

Oscar:

Uh, there is a deepening social crisis that will provoke, um, major

Oscar:

struggles here and internationally.

Oscar:

And the escalation of war will be accompanied by an escalation

Oscar:

of war against the working class.

Oscar:

Just one point on the issue you raised about people in the

Oscar:

Rust Belt voting for Trump.

Oscar:

Many of them had voted for Bernie Sanders or supported him.

Oscar:

Um, and they swung behind Trump after Sanders, um, wrapped up his 2016

Oscar:

candidacy and promoted Hillary Clinton.

Oscar:

Um, so one asp, you know, Sanders essentially, and the Democratic

Oscar:

Party handed, helped hand the presidency to, to Trump on a platter.

Oscar:

So one aspect of fighting for a socialist movement is exposing,

Oscar:

um, Fake left charlatans such as Sanders, such as Jeremy Corbyn in

Oscar:

Britain, who played a similar role.

Oscar:

Another is, you know, the clarification of, uh, the complex historical

Oscar:

questions of the 20th century.

Oscar:

Certainly the 1949, uh, Chinese Revolution was, uh, A major, uh, event, advance in

Oscar:

history, definite gains were made, um, but we always insisted that it was deformed at

Oscar:

birth, and the issue was that the Chinese Communist Party, a Stalinist organisation,

Oscar:

had essentially a nationalist perspective, conception that socialism could be built.

Oscar:

Uh, in one country, it can't be.

Oscar:

It has to be an international system because we live in a

Oscar:

global society, a global economy.

Oscar:

And the working class itself, uh, is an international force.

Oscar:

I mean, it's not possible to go through all of the twists and

Oscar:

turns, but no one really views China as a socialist, uh, society or a

Oscar:

society on the path to socialism.

Oscar:

I think it has the fastest growing number of billionaires in the world,

Oscar:

and the issue is, I mean, it's very economic growth, you know, which you

Oscar:

referenced, um, has now brought it up against a sort of global war drive,

Oscar:

uh, of American imperialism, and the Chinese regime, uh, has no answer,

Oscar:

just as Putin, um, has no solution.

Oscar:

Again, on the one hand, it's sort of appeals to.

Oscar:

Um, pleas to the imperialist powers for some sort of deal.

Oscar:

On the other hand, it's, um, you know, saber rattling the promotion of Chinese

Oscar:

nationalism, which only serves to divide the working class, uh, and heighten the

Oscar:

prospects of a catastrophic conflict.

Oscar:

So certainly our perspective, again, is an international one,

Oscar:

uh, for an international class.

Oscar:

I mean, we say that Chinese workers have to, you know, Unite with workers

Oscar:

in the United States, in Australia, uh, against all of the governments

Oscar:

and against the profit system.

Oscar:

And as we were discussing at the beginning, I think, you know,

Oscar:

in relation to Bogdan, I mean, we are the Trotskyist movement.

Oscar:

So we are the movement that fought against, uh, the betrayals of Stalinism

Oscar:

from the beginning, um, and defended, you know, the perspective of world

Oscar:

socialist revolution, which was, you know, Um, what led the 1917 Russian

Oscar:

Revolution and what we think is, is now.

Oscar:

The path, the perspective that needs to be turned to, uh, under conditions today.

Trev:

Max, anything to add to the China thoughts?

Max:

I think, uh, I think Oscar's characterized, I mean, there is no

Max:

progressive solution, uh, that the Chinese regime has to this question of war.

Max:

I mean, its response to Uh, you know, the AUKUS military pact, that's the

Max:

Australian, UK, US, you know, pact.

Max:

Uh, the building up of, uh, of, uh, the Navy and, and, and essentially

Max:

the transformation which the Labor Party is completing of Australia into,

Max:

uh, um, uh, you know, essentially a launching platform for war against

Max:

China is to build up for war itself.

Max:

Uh, it is, uh, uh, again, I mean, the Chinese Communist Party, I mean,

Max:

the name is, is, uh, is misleading.

Max:

It's not a communist country nor a socialist country, but a

Max:

thoroughly capitalist country.

Max:

So we call on the Chinese working class.

Max:

Uh, to, to break with their own ruling elite at home as we do with workers around

Max:

the world and to unite internationally on a socialist, uh, foundation.

Max:

Um, so yeah, I mean, I think those points are, are important

Max:

around the question of China.

Max:

Um, you know, it's, and one point I just want to emphasize, because in the

Max:

course of the discussion, there can be a tendency, and if you want to talk

Max:

about, you know, how consciousness develops as well, it's very much in

Max:

the kind of normal terms to say, you know, our government, our country.

Max:

Well, the reality is there are really two countries in every

Max:

country, in every, every nation.

Max:

The country of the ruling elite that run everything, you know, this is

Max:

the government of the ruling elite.

Max:

This isn't our government.

Max:

Uh, and then there's that of the working class.

Max:

And what we seek to do is to unite the working class together against

Max:

their own ruling class at home.

Max:

Uh, as Lenin said, you know, the main enemy is at home.

Max:

It's not.

Max:

The Working Class Brothers and Sisters in that sense that, you know, in First World

Max:

War they were being flung off to murder.

Max:

And it's the same, interestingly, if you go to the question of Israel and

Max:

Palestine, we call for the unity of the Palestinian and Israeli working class.

Max:

You know that the Israeli working class, who themselves are, are,

Max:

are You know, very oppressed.

Max:

I mean, the Netanyahu regime brutalizes the workers in any

Max:

opposition to the genocide.

Max:

And we call for the Israeli and Palestinian working class to unite

Max:

against the ruling elites at home, including the Palestinian Authority.

Max:

Uh, in Palestine, which, you know, has done everything in that sense in

Max:

its power to facilitate this genocide.

Max:

You know, it locks arms with Netanyahu and the Israeli regime.

Max:

I mean, it offers no solution, uh, for the, for the

Max:

Palestinian, uh, working class.

Max:

But anyway.

Max:

Have

Trev:

you read or seen much of Yanis Varoufakis?

Trev:

Have you?

Trev:

Have you paid much attention to what he does?

Max:

Yeah, we've written a fair bit on Varoufakis at different stages and Syriza

Max:

itself, which, uh, you know, in Greece was essentially the pseudo left in power.

Max:

We talk about the pseudo left, they came to power in Greece.

Max:

The promises of, uh, you know, on the back of the promising of ending the

Max:

kind of massive austerity measures against the Greek working class.

Max:

Well, what did they do?

Max:

They continued and deepened it.

Max:

I think he's,

Trev:

I think he's been quite effective though in, in, in demonstrating the

Trev:

power of say the German banks and, and that sort of oligarchy capitalist system

Trev:

that just does what it wants and bugger the rest of the community sort of thing.

Trev:

I think he's been effective at least in that level in describing that.

Trev:

So more and more characters like that, uh, what's needed to, to open people's

Trev:

eyes to how the world's actually working.

Trev:

I

Max:

think the thing about Barry Arthakos and the entire layer that

Max:

he represents is the ultimate, uh, orientation that is put forward is that

Max:

in some form to reform capitalism or to elect a government, uh, of various, uh,

Max:

amalgamation of pseudo left socialists that can somehow resolve the issue.

Max:

I mean, the truth is, uh, working class needs to be told the truth.

Max:

I mean, when we say consciousness lags behind, workers need to be told the truth.

Max:

It's not simply the question of electing a new government.

Max:

You cannot reform capitalism.

Max:

I mean, we're talking about socialism.

Max:

Socialism is a very, very difficult task.

Max:

There's no question, but reforming capitalism is impossible.

Max:

And so the answer to that is, uh, you know, as I said,

Max:

World Socialist Revolution.

Max:

And I think, oh, I think someone's posted one of our articles.

Max:

We have got numbers of articles on Varoufakis.

Trev:

Okay.

Trev:

Yeah.

Trev:

Somebody's it's, it's the title of it.

Trev:

Yanis Varoufakis tours Australia, a pseudo left representative

Trev:

of European capitalism.

Trev:

In Search of Political Allies.

Trev:

That's the title of it?

Max:

Yep.

Max:

Oh, I'll

Trev:

have to read that one.

Trev:

So, so I'm a bit of, I'm a bit of a fanboy of Yana's, so I'll

Trev:

read that one with interest.

Trev:

Yep.

Oscar:

I think it is worth dwelling on what he actually did.

Oscar:

Um, obviously he gives lectures, he gives talks, but if you look at, you

Oscar:

know, his actual political career, um, it was in the Syriza government,

Oscar:

which came to power in January, 2015.

Oscar:

It did so on the basis of claiming that it would end austerity, it would

Oscar:

advance the interests of Greek workers.

Oscar:

Um, it did the absolute opposite.

Oscar:

I mean, what Varoufakis did as finance minister was impose the dictates of

Oscar:

the very German and European banks, which are now called the Storhart.

Oscar:

Actually, he

Trev:

resigned before that.

Trev:

No, no,

Oscar:

no.

Oscar:

I mean, he was finance minister, um, from January to July, and in that period,

Oscar:

uh, the Syriza government, agreed to continue imposing cuts, um, which had

Oscar:

been mandated by the previous government.

Oscar:

He insisted that Greek workers had to sacrifice, um, all the while.

Oscar:

I mean, he is a multi millionaire himself, a very affluent individual.

Oscar:

And then as, as you say, he did resign.

Oscar:

Um, he and the Syriza leadership, uh, organized a referendum in July.

Oscar:

Do you want agree with, you know, the continuation of austerity?

Oscar:

Syriza thought, um, you know, the population would vote yes,

Oscar:

because they wouldn't say, see any way to, um, oppose the cuts being

Oscar:

demanded by the European banks.

Oscar:

Um, in fact, the population voted resoundingly no, and, and Varoufakis

Oscar:

said in his memoir, um, that the atmosphere within Syriza's leadership

Oscar:

was dejection, despair, That the Greek masses had voted, um, so overwhelmingly

Oscar:

against austerity, and so he, he walked up and he created a new career.

Oscar:

That was, yeah, that was his

Trev:

fellow members, but not him himself.

Trev:

He was elated by it, but

Oscar:

He was the finance minister, and actually, sorry, just one other

Oscar:

point which we do raise, um, in the article which someone linked is He

Oscar:

said, I mean, when he went into the discussions, um, with the EU bankers, you

Oscar:

know, when he'd just become the finance minister, he subsequently raised what

Oscar:

he proposed was standard Thatcherite and Reagan economics, that is, austerity,

Oscar:

um, which is what he carried out.

Oscar:

And I think that's an important issue because You know, one of the,

Oscar:

one of the questions that comes up is, you know, there is actually mass

Oscar:

hostility to, um, the banks, the corporations, social inequality, uh,

Oscar:

and under those conditions, you do have figures, uh, such as Varoufakis, uh,

Oscar:

organizations like Syriza put forward to sort of trap that discontent, um,

Oscar:

and to divert it, um, back behind the capitalist parliamentary establishment.

Oscar:

And the whole argument, you know, is that there's some way of reforming the

Oscar:

situation, ameliorating inequality, which has proven, you know, in

Oscar:

practice to be a sham and a trap.

Trev:

We, um, as we're talking here, we've got a, uh, a chat room

Trev:

operating and full marks to everybody who are writing their comments.

Trev:

They're coming thick and fast and, um, too much for us to sort

Trev:

of read and comprehend, I think.

Trev:

Gentlemen, If any of them were, you know, you wanted to respond to, you

Trev:

can, but, uh, dear listener, you could watch this on YouTube or on Facebook and

Trev:

you will see people's comments as well.

Trev:

Some of them, uh, quite lengthy and, uh, they've put some

Trev:

thought into it, obviously.

Trev:

So thank you to the people in the chat room for that.

Trev:

Apologies that we don't actually, um, get through all this.

Trev:

Because I would spend, for example, about a minute reading this current one,

Trev:

and then another two or three minutes having to consider it, and there would

Trev:

be three minutes of dead air, and, um, it's just, we can't do it, but,

Trev:

um, thank you for your contributions.

Trev:

Um, anything else, gentlemen?

Trev:

Or are you happy to sort of wrap it up?

Trev:

I'm happy for you guys to come back at another time in the future.

Trev:

Look, um, there's, there's, just getting, circling all the way back to Bogdan, Um,

Trev:

Sarah, does he have legal representation?

Trev:

Does he have,

Max:

what's Look, we are seeking to assist in all manner possible to

Max:

get the best legal representation.

Max:

As you might see, and your listeners will see if they have a look at the

Max:

statement, part of the police state conditions within Ukraine is that we

Max:

had to approach About five different lawyers, uh, even for him to be able,

Max:

uh, which all of them, uh, rejected, uh, because they feared quite rightly, uh,

Max:

not only for their own careers, but life.

Max:

Uh, there is a real definite threat if you're a lawyer, uh, and, uh, took this on

Max:

there was a fear that you would be thrown, forced into the army and thrown to the

Max:

front lines and it's not unreasonable.

Max:

Uh, but we are, you know, look, we are doing and going to assist in whatever

Max:

means necessary in whatever legal avenue possible, uh, to, to free Bogdart, but the

Max:

critical component will be this campaign.

Max:

I mean, this campaign, uh, you know, and the international campaign fight for his

Max:

freedom will be really the critical and determining factor in the outcome for him.

Trev:

So what do you want people to do?

Max:

I'd love everyone who is listening to, uh, to look at the, uh,

Max:

the, uh, our website on this, wsws.

Max:

org slash Free Bogdan.

Max:

Uh, uh, and, and I think that was in the chat, it'll probably come up again.

Max:

Uh, there's an option through that website to sign the petition, which

Max:

I encourage everyone to do, but also send in statements of support.

Max:

Uh, we're calling on the broadest, uh, you know, spread of this campaign.

Max:

I mean, in that sense, we're not calling on people to have, uh, explicit

Max:

political agreement with everything that we've discussed tonight.

Max:

I mean, this is a socialist, uh, uh, opponent of war who is,

Max:

uh, who is being arrested, uh, for essentially a thought crime.

Max:

It is the sharpest representation on the attack on all left wing opposition.

Max:

So in that sense, we're asking those To follow their own, uh,

Max:

not in that sense ours, but their own political, um, perspective,

Max:

their own political, uh, positions.

Max:

And to, uh, oppose the political frame up of, uh, of, uh, of Comrade

Max:

Bogdan, as I said, a socialist, um, and, uh, an op an opponent of war.

Trev:

Just before we went, um, live, I was talking to Max about, uh, uh, a fellow

Trev:

called Kieran O'Reilly, who was part of the Catholic social workers movement.

Trev:

Dear listener, he, um, is an Australian and he was involved in, um, damaging the

Trev:

B 52 bombers that were heading to Iraq at one point and he spent time in, in

Trev:

American and Irish jails and, uh, a very interesting character and he's currently,

Trev:

uh, With a vigil outside Belmarsh, I think, supporting Julian Assange.

Trev:

Um, if you're interested in looking at this podcast further, and

Trev:

you're wanting a really cracker of an interview, uh, episode 343.

Trev:

Go and look that one up.

Trev:

It's an amazing story about a selfless man fighting for social justice.

Trev:

So, my little ad for the extra listeners we've got with this episode is check

Trev:

out episode 343, Kieran O'Reilly.

Trev:

Very interesting.

Trev:

So, well, Max and Oscar, I reckon that's probably enough.

Trev:

If some development happens down the track of any significance, give us a

Trev:

shout out and we'll get you back on or at least let people know something about it.

Trev:

So thanks for your time and, and good luck with everything you're doing.

Max:

Thanks very much, Trevor.

Oscar:

Thanks for having us on.

Trev:

No worries.

Trev:

Okay.

Trev:

Bye everybody.

Trev:

We'll be back next week.

Trev:

Normal episode, Scott and Joe and myself, we'll be talking about news

Trev:

and politics and sex and religion.

Trev:

All the things you're not supposed to talk about at a dinner party.

Trev:

So, um, alrighty.

Trev:

We'll see you then.

Trev:

Bye for now.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove
News, political events, culture, ethics and the transformations taking place in our society.

Listen for free

One Off Tips

If you don't like Patreon, Paypal or Bitcoin then here is another donation option. The currency is US dollars.
Donate via credit card.
C
Colin J Ely $10
Keep up the good work